Justice1327
Well-Known Member
Who do you send your barrels to?
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Nitride a barrel?
- Thread starter Justice1327
- Start date
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They come Nitrided.
Very happy with this clean and practically untouched gas port. This isn't typical with untreated 416R. I have some crime scene photos of those! LOL
IridiumRed
Active Member
Very interesting replies! Bamban, thanks for weighing in again. Seems like youre the guy with the most experience w having lots of barrels nitrided aftermarket, putting a lot of use on them
About all the nitrided AR15 barrels out there / how well it seems to work, thats something that always sticks in my head. Theres a TON of those barrels out there, and i just dont seem to hear about problems?? Now, to be fair, a lot of those arent "match grade" ... or at least arent to the quality of a custom chambered aftermarket barrel, esp say a krieger/bartlein. And the expectations arent as high either (and rest of rifle may not be capable of supporting really high end barrel anyways).
I bet that the vast majority of AR15 barrels that are nitrided from factory dont really get any of the special treatments / breakin that we've discussed earlier. MAYBE some mfgs could soak them in water (seems so easy), but theyre not chambering barrel, installing barrel, shooting it to break in, cleaning, then nitriding. Not practical in manufacturing... most custom builders prob wouldnt do the break in work either, thats a lot of time/effort (and time really is money). Or, if they did do it youd see a big upcharge for barrel nitriding due to all that extra work (which would be fair i think). Ie, if they charge extra $100, 150 for nitrided barrel vs regular barrel, theyre not doing an involved breakin process (could maybe do a breakin w JB compound or similar, knock sharp edges off)
I wonder if a piece of the "controversy" around nitriding barrels is driven by WHAT barrels are being done (in terms of quality), and what expectations are for accuracy. If youre messing w rifles/barrels where 1 to 2 MOA is perfectly acceptable, that could be a different deal then a rifle that can do 1/4 to 1/2 MOA. That ranges from average factory barrel quality w unfloated front handguard AR15 ("general service grade") to blueprinted bolt action, freefloated, bedded in good stock, wearing premium barrel like krieger/bartlein (JUST using these examples as general examples for sake of argument, there are MANY individual examples of rifles that perform outside those examples).
But if youre chasing that consistent 1/4 to 1/2 MOA range, where i think premium rifles run (mostly custom stuff / high end factory rifles, and is realizable w good attention to detail, wo going to benchrest extremes). In this range, everything has to be just right to have this consistent performance. Maybe its in this range where nitriding becomes more "dangerous" in terms of possibly getting not good performance from it. At 1/4 to 1/2 MOA, if you have even one significant item that isnt at least pretty good.... youre not getting that performance.
And the shooters w those rifles are also the ones who will be most critical of the performance you get out of the rifle / notice when it underperforms (low accuracy, low velocity, etc), or performs well for a while, but seems to die early (maybe earlier then whats expected from untreated barrel).
Maybe nitriding introduces enough extra variability from one barrel to the next that it can be problematic, versus service grade AR15s that variability gets lost in the other noise / just isnt noticed by shooters.
Anyways! Fascinating conversation. Id say right now im leaning more towards having a premium barrel (krieger/bartlein) done. Not QUITE there yet, but closer then i was when i wrote my first post on this thread
About all the nitrided AR15 barrels out there / how well it seems to work, thats something that always sticks in my head. Theres a TON of those barrels out there, and i just dont seem to hear about problems?? Now, to be fair, a lot of those arent "match grade" ... or at least arent to the quality of a custom chambered aftermarket barrel, esp say a krieger/bartlein. And the expectations arent as high either (and rest of rifle may not be capable of supporting really high end barrel anyways).
I bet that the vast majority of AR15 barrels that are nitrided from factory dont really get any of the special treatments / breakin that we've discussed earlier. MAYBE some mfgs could soak them in water (seems so easy), but theyre not chambering barrel, installing barrel, shooting it to break in, cleaning, then nitriding. Not practical in manufacturing... most custom builders prob wouldnt do the break in work either, thats a lot of time/effort (and time really is money). Or, if they did do it youd see a big upcharge for barrel nitriding due to all that extra work (which would be fair i think). Ie, if they charge extra $100, 150 for nitrided barrel vs regular barrel, theyre not doing an involved breakin process (could maybe do a breakin w JB compound or similar, knock sharp edges off)
I wonder if a piece of the "controversy" around nitriding barrels is driven by WHAT barrels are being done (in terms of quality), and what expectations are for accuracy. If youre messing w rifles/barrels where 1 to 2 MOA is perfectly acceptable, that could be a different deal then a rifle that can do 1/4 to 1/2 MOA. That ranges from average factory barrel quality w unfloated front handguard AR15 ("general service grade") to blueprinted bolt action, freefloated, bedded in good stock, wearing premium barrel like krieger/bartlein (JUST using these examples as general examples for sake of argument, there are MANY individual examples of rifles that perform outside those examples).
But if youre chasing that consistent 1/4 to 1/2 MOA range, where i think premium rifles run (mostly custom stuff / high end factory rifles, and is realizable w good attention to detail, wo going to benchrest extremes). In this range, everything has to be just right to have this consistent performance. Maybe its in this range where nitriding becomes more "dangerous" in terms of possibly getting not good performance from it. At 1/4 to 1/2 MOA, if you have even one significant item that isnt at least pretty good.... youre not getting that performance.
And the shooters w those rifles are also the ones who will be most critical of the performance you get out of the rifle / notice when it underperforms (low accuracy, low velocity, etc), or performs well for a while, but seems to die early (maybe earlier then whats expected from untreated barrel).
Maybe nitriding introduces enough extra variability from one barrel to the next that it can be problematic, versus service grade AR15s that variability gets lost in the other noise / just isnt noticed by shooters.
Anyways! Fascinating conversation. Id say right now im leaning more towards having a premium barrel (krieger/bartlein) done. Not QUITE there yet, but closer then i was when i wrote my first post on this thread
From our team manager on a batch of 12 barrels I sent to the junior team.
"Using your test fixture - best barrel was .23 MOA, worst barrel was .67 MOA. Test fixture was in a ransom rest, fired on a shotmarker electronic target. Light mirage at 200 yards target distance. Ammo was 77smk with 24.7 gr SWP"
All the donated barrels from Shilen are their Select Match 7.5T Ratchet twist, preturned to 1.00x straight. I spin them up for competition finished at 20.
The test fixture he mentioned is a Remington bolt action with a purposed built adapter to screw in an AR15 barrel. When I send the barrels to the team I loosen the barrel extension to be screwed and torqued back on after precision testing.
"Using your test fixture - best barrel was .23 MOA, worst barrel was .67 MOA. Test fixture was in a ransom rest, fired on a shotmarker electronic target. Light mirage at 200 yards target distance. Ammo was 77smk with 24.7 gr SWP"
All the donated barrels from Shilen are their Select Match 7.5T Ratchet twist, preturned to 1.00x straight. I spin them up for competition finished at 20.
The test fixture he mentioned is a Remington bolt action with a purposed built adapter to screw in an AR15 barrel. When I send the barrels to the team I loosen the barrel extension to be screwed and torqued back on after precision testing.
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Justice1327
Well-Known Member
You touched on many of the things that I'm thinking about and considering. I have a couple barrels. I'm getting ready to send off with some defiance actions that all need to be nitrated. Some of the barrels are already broken in and shoot three-quarter to half MOA . I'm gonna send off a couple more that are not broken in And I will keep a very close eye on the barrel as I shoot it and break it in to see what it looks like and note any changes.
HRM Johnny
Well-Known Member
Excellent. Please keep detailed notes as much as it is possible. Also, please keep us informed.
IridiumRed
Active Member
One thing i've considered is using JB / similar on cloth patch to lap throat after chambering / before nitriding (vs shooting break in). I've mentioned that several times, but what i didn't mention is that I've thought about using a cotton swab / cotton ball pushed through the throat area and looking at it afterwards w borescope to see if its pulled any "hairs" off of it
That always seems to be a reasonable test for how smooth an item is, whether any burrs remain.
Might be a good way to test whether you've done enough with the JB to get throat smooth enough. I'd think that if it wont pulls hairs off a cotton swab or cotton ball, then it wont tear up a bullet jacket.... Probably doesn't account for ALL of the types of roughness in the throat that could cause bullet issues / low performance if not taken care of one-way-or-the-other, but... might just be a good test to know if you're in the ballpark
Bamban, thats awesome shilen donates the barrels to you, they just moved up a notch in my list of barrel makers
And I love your barrel test fixture, very smart, reminds me of the guys building 1911s who would use barrel test fixtures to judge barrels before doing a ton of work to them (this applies more to the guys taking stock type barrels and welding them up). No reason to go through all the effort of hard fitting a barrel... if it will never shoot right to begin with! And in your case I think theres time/efficiency savings in doing test fixture too. smart all around
One other thing - for a barrel thats already been fired, but not nitrided yet, JB might not be bad to use on throat area on that too. Not for the smoothing effect, but instead just to try to make sure ALL the fouling is gone (used after your favorite chemical cleaners / cleaning process). Nothing like physically scraping away a molecular layer or two to get down to a truly fresh surface...
That always seems to be a reasonable test for how smooth an item is, whether any burrs remain.
Might be a good way to test whether you've done enough with the JB to get throat smooth enough. I'd think that if it wont pulls hairs off a cotton swab or cotton ball, then it wont tear up a bullet jacket.... Probably doesn't account for ALL of the types of roughness in the throat that could cause bullet issues / low performance if not taken care of one-way-or-the-other, but... might just be a good test to know if you're in the ballpark
Bamban, thats awesome shilen donates the barrels to you, they just moved up a notch in my list of barrel makers
And I love your barrel test fixture, very smart, reminds me of the guys building 1911s who would use barrel test fixtures to judge barrels before doing a ton of work to them (this applies more to the guys taking stock type barrels and welding them up). No reason to go through all the effort of hard fitting a barrel... if it will never shoot right to begin with! And in your case I think theres time/efficiency savings in doing test fixture too. smart all around One other thing - for a barrel thats already been fired, but not nitrided yet, JB might not be bad to use on throat area on that too. Not for the smoothing effect, but instead just to try to make sure ALL the fouling is gone (used after your favorite chemical cleaners / cleaning process). Nothing like physically scraping away a molecular layer or two to get down to a truly fresh surface...
barrels to you, they just moved up a notch in my list of barrel makers
Yes, I always mention the fact that Shilen donates their top of the line barrels to the program. We get 6 for free, and 6 more twofer every year.
Before the barrels were tested, the team issued barrels in random. In the past, for all we knew we could have very well issued the best barrels to new shooters and vice versa to the top shooters.
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IridiumRed
Active Member
That is awesome about shilen. And props to you for taking care of the kids as well, its a great thing to get kids into real shooting
Thinking more about nitriding, I'm betting that the small chamfer you put on barrel crowns now (vs 90 deg), to avoid crown damage by sharp edges breaking off, might be one of the details that makes you successful with barrel nitriding (along with water soaking). Seems like such a tiny detail, but.... crown damage will absolutely have big effects on performance. And it sounds like this is something that happens after some use.... I wonder how many times someone got a nitrided barrel that died a premature death (getting lower round count vs whats normal for untreated barrel), how often this (crown damage) could have been cause. Its a small enough detail that it would be easy to not notice. And not knowing its a potential issue means it might not be looked for either...
Thinking out loud, I wonder how often there might be crown damage on nitrided barrel due to a cleaning rod banging against sharp edges. Since nitriding makes a barrel so resistant to damage / wear in so many ways, its easy to forget that its also become more brittle on tiny sharp surfaces....
Thinking more about nitriding, I'm betting that the small chamfer you put on barrel crowns now (vs 90 deg), to avoid crown damage by sharp edges breaking off, might be one of the details that makes you successful with barrel nitriding (along with water soaking). Seems like such a tiny detail, but.... crown damage will absolutely have big effects on performance. And it sounds like this is something that happens after some use.... I wonder how many times someone got a nitrided barrel that died a premature death (getting lower round count vs whats normal for untreated barrel), how often this (crown damage) could have been cause. Its a small enough detail that it would be easy to not notice. And not knowing its a potential issue means it might not be looked for either...
Thinking out loud, I wonder how often there might be crown damage on nitrided barrel due to a cleaning rod banging against sharp edges. Since nitriding makes a barrel so resistant to damage / wear in so many ways, its easy to forget that its also become more brittle on tiny sharp surfaces....
