New old .25 cal wildcat

[Big Guy]

You do not owe anyone to justify your wildcat. I considered .25 wildcat a couple of years ago since U never had any. I stayed with the .257 WBY as my first .25 Cal and WBY cartridge. I have 1:7" 22" suppressed for the 131 BJ, and 133/135 Bergers but jumped into the 145 Black Hole instead. Good luck with your build.

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Are you loading in your wine celler ?

 

[Calvin45]

Are you loading in your wine celler ?

Certainly looks that way. Or maybe he just likes singing "99 bottles of beer on the wall" while cranking out ammo!

 

[del2les]

You asked for it. The .250 MDC: 26 7/8 finished length #4 sporter contour 1:7.5 twist Brux barrel with Gentry Quiet Brake, blueprinted (fully!) Rem 700 action with all the internals upgraded, HS Precision fully epoxy bedded stock, Timney Calvin Elite 2-stage trigger set to ounces. Bolt fluting by Greg Young at SPR, Cerakoting fading from Stone Gray to Hidden White to match the Slate HS stock. 8 pounds on the nose. Added ARC rings and an Eotec Vudu 3.5-18X50 in 34mm illuminated FFP. 133 Bergers started the break-in. Made several with varying seating depths from .043" up to .083". Hole within a hole regardless of depth. Could not reach lands with the Berger. Close. 71 grains of RL 33 only netted me 2983 ft/s. Switched to 134gr Hornady ELD-M and StaBall HD 67 grains. 3016. 68 grains = 3076. 70.5 grains = 3146 ft/s. IMR8133 worked well, also. Mid 3000s with the charge I selected. Have been cautious not having any idea of what to expect. I still have plenty of room for more StaBall HD under the 134s. No signs of pressure and recoil is akin to shooting a 40 grain bullet from a .22-.250. Group shown was 2nd one ever. .344". 1st one had first 2 through the same hole, but the chronograph indicated there was an issue before I looked at the target. Speed dropped way out from 1st 2. Sure enough, it was .71" above the first 2. I will easily top 3200, and hoping for 3300 with the Berger. VERY forgiving. Running Norma .264 Win Mag brass through a Hornady .25 caliber Universal neck sizer. Seating with a Frankford Arsenal Universal Seating set. The process is super easy, and there is very little runout on the necks when done. I dip them in powdered graphite and run the sizer button down and back, then trim uniformly. The Brux was lapped very well from the factory and the gunsmith said it was the straightest barrel he'd ever see. No deflection spinning with an indicator needle attached. Therefore, no timing needed. Johnny Garris, Owner of Custom Gun Coating and Repair in Mobile, AL did all the machine work and fitting. We are firm believers in minimum headspacing. He's the guy who built me the 1/4 MOA .300 Dakota. This one reminds me a lot of that rifle. Didn't take nearly as long to smoothe out either. Can't wait to go back for the 3rd session to fine tune loads. View attachment 492642View attachment 492643View attachment 492644View attachment 492645View attachment 492646

Thanks for that update. It should do well on distant game/targets, and I have always liked quarter bores.

 

[FEENIX]

Are you loading in your wine celler ?

Yes!

 

[AkleyFan]

A friend and I are currently chasing the .25 cal rabbit. First I built 3 .25 Creedmoor's for customers doing nrl hunter. Then we experimented with a 25-260 Creedmoor, 25 Sherman, and a .25 Saum. Several of them have plus p or improved throats. Here is a list of velocities.
26" .25 Creedmoors 2850-2950
22" 25-260 Creedmoor 3050
24" suppressed 25 Sherman 3300
22" suppressed 25 Saum 3200
The Saum is still in load development, and all of these are shooting 135's, 133's, and 134's.
Accuracy has been crazy. The Creedmoor's couldn't be developed at less than 200 yards because the routinely shot 1 hole groups. One of them shot an 8 shot ladder test all through one hole at 100 yards. Both the Sherman and the 25-260 have shot 1.5-2" groups at 650 yards.

Puhleeze start a thread on these builds, us quarter bore junkies need more info. Especially curious to know what a 25-260 Creedmoor is... the numbers looks enticing for a 22" barrel. Greatly appreciated.

 

[slikmrc]

I am going the other way. I'm neck sizing the .280 AI up to .30 cal. Reamer should be in by 1st of November. I plan to use the new Speer Impact 190gr almost exclusively. It will equal the .300 SAUM and slightly exceed the .30-06 AI and I don't have to waste time or components fire forming. You can't get .300 SAUM or .300 WSM brass and if you find it, it's $4 or more a case. Granted 280 AI isn't much better, but both Hornady and Nosler produce it, and I think ADG or Peterson may have picked it up. It's slightly cheaper in Nosler and way cheaper in Hornady. Hornady brass has its issues, but given lots of patience and a couple extra steps, it can shoot as accurately as anything else (most of the time). 26" Proof barrel on a Kelbly long action in a custom inlet Mesa (Pure) carbon fiber stock.

Not necessarily with that particular bullet, but I'm good for anything in the western hemisphere, I believe.

That #4 barrel sits nice on the 25. Definitely need a thread on the .280AI/30, I'm looking at doing the same on my next build. Looking at a reamer Manson and Nathan Foster designed also. They call the reamer 30-06 AI FMR, like you I'm thinking neck up the 280 AI and be done. My current 06 AI is getting 3100 fps with 165 Nosler AB's. Rifle has a 24" 11 twist Lilja 3 groove on it. Thinking I need to set one up for 180-200 grain bullets.

 

[VinceMule]

slimmrc, what are you going to do for dies?

with a 'ought six AI, if you throat it out be careful of the CBTO vs mag box length. A Wyatt's mag box on a 700-long action sure is nice for that issue.

The only issue is that the Lapua 'o six brass does not work worth a darn with SAAMI spec reamers. I hope you do not get busted on this issue as I did as Win brass is .0045 smaller in the web than Lapua brass, thus order a CIP spec reamer. You want a minimum of .003 over web dia on new Lapua brass, MINIMUM.

 

[slikmrc]

Plan on dies is neck size and fire form brass. Then have Hornady cut a custom die. I've not had trouble with lapua in the past but hear what your saying.

 

[VinceMule]

Have a plan, work the plan.

Winchester brass is a good option, and always start with new brass. There is a big difference in using Lapua brass in factory chambers vs custom chambers.

I am not sure that it is worth the trouble to go over '06 AI throated for longer bullets, one heck of an expense and wait with questionable results. I Bet your gunsmith has a thirty caliber uni throater to cut the throat longer.

 

[.300 Dakota]

Hehehe I like the sound of that…but out of curiosity what were the expectations that the .257 wby couldn't meet? And what barrel length is your lazz?

I ask because I too entertain the thought of a bigger than .257 wby quarter bore someday, but honestly don't know if it's possible to beat it by much. I'm getting the 75 grain hammer hunter to 4150 fps with rl17 in my 24 inch vanguard. If the bigger lazz case out of a longer barrel is only able to beat it by 150 fps perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brass cost/availability and ability to reach the lands for more consistent accuracy. That is if you're building a custom SAAMI. There isn't a 257 Wby made in factory production that can stabilize a bullet at sea level with more than .479 BC...

Norma, PPU, Winchester, Nosler, and I believe ADG or one of the newer ones all make .264 Win brass, and they're all cheaper than Wby.

 

[Calvin45]

Brass cost/availability and ability to reach the lands for more consistent accuracy. That is if you're building a custom SAAMI. There isn't a 257 Wby made in factory production that can stabilize a bullet at sea level with more than .479 BC...

Norma, PPU, Winchester, Nosler, and I believe ADG or one of the newer ones all make .264 Win brass, and they're all cheaper than Wby.

Oh yeah I'm familiar with the freebore and twist rate side of the equation. And very aware of the pricy wby brass - I do have properly stamped .257 wby brass but also loads with brass formed from both .264 Winnie and 7mm rem mag - no issues with that at all except the neck is short by a bit. L

But that has little to do with case capacity. I just meant, if you were starting with a barrel blank and could specify twist and freebore and barrel length to your spec, is there really much room to go faster than the .257 weatherby or 25-7mm rem/.25-264 win/25-300WSM - anything in that capacity range - or does the law of diminishing returns dictate it's a fools errand? Legit curious about this, chatted a while ago with someone with a .257 RUM, have given serious thought to a .25-300 weatherby.

 

[Muledeerhuntingfreak]

You do not owe anyone to justify your wildcat. I considered .25 wildcat a couple of years ago since U never had any. I stayed with the .257 WBY as my first .25 Cal and WBY cartridge. I have 1:7" 22" suppressed for the 131 BJ, and 133/135 Bergers but jumped into the 145 Black Hole instead. Good luck with your build.

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I don't have a 257. but what I do have is a Bunch of once fired boxes of brass. I have no idea what to do with them. Maybe somebody would like to purchase them. 5 to be exact.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I'm about to order a stock for my 25 Sherman Max build. The other components are in hand or en route.
I need the time to sort out some others, so an extended lead time may actually work out right. Maybe.?!
Like my 25 Sherman. Got freshly formed brass waiting on me

 

[timo308]

So with the assistance of the folks at Manson Precision today, I re-invented the wheel. Many would argue that the .257 Weatherby is a tack driver and suitable for running the 133 grain Berger Elite hunting bullet given the appropriate twist. In my experience, it has been quite finicky, due to the excessive freebore, not allowing one to reach the lands, and the proposition of rolling the dice in hopes that what was produced would love the long Berger offering wasn't appealing. Eager to make a high-performance round with low recoil and having another half dozen projects currently running, I gave quite a bit of thought to a design. I could not afford at the time of this writing to buy another aftermarket action with all the trimmings and pay to have the Gunsmith Fairy whack the pile with his golden hammer and turn it into a long range tack-driver. I prefer to neck up, not down. The count of the number of specialty dies/tools and hours needed for the latter is high if you want a nice, straight case to load. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything suitable with a magnum case head meant for a long action to neck up and remain under 30 caliber. (I have a fully blue printed and sleeved Remington 700 action available with all the internals replaced, oversized and ground lug and TriggerTeck Special 2-stage trigger set at 8 and 12oz.) To complicate matters, the .277 and .257 cal bores are only available in 1:10 twist, if at all, without special ordering. I was all set to give in to the necking down process and decrease a .308 Norma Mag to 7mm. It is shorter than the .300 Win case, which would give better magazine well clearance with the longer 195gr EOLs. I have 120 Norma cases onhand, and I figured I better get more. They were available a year ago, but no longer. No sense in building a wildcat that you may bever be able to get brass for ever! I have plenty of 6.5x300 Wby brass, but the case is too long and would need to be run in a longer aftermarket action. The 300 PRC was a strong contender for a wildcat. A 7/300 PRC wasn't a bad idea, and it's been done numerous times, so there might be some data. I kept that clicker issue running through my mind, though.

Finally I decided to look to see what was available as far as brass. I found a cache of .264 Win Mag, but realized necking up would be pointless unless I wanted to shoot only up to 150 grain bullets in a .27 bore. And besides, the neck is way too short on the 264 for anything larger and longer. Necking down however, was an intriguing proposition. The neck length is perfect for the quarterbore; better suited than for the .264, in fact. The 800lb gorilla in the room was the 257 Weatherby Magnum. It holds 80.4 grains of water and operates at 62, 500psi max avg. pressure with .378" of freebore. So much freebore, that the caryridge is notoriously finicky, and I personally have not been able to find a tack-driving load in a couple of iterations of the cartridge - admittedly neither being a Mark V. I considered the price difference of brass - I bought 50 264 cases for only about 25% more than I would have paid for 20 257 Wby cases. Also I thought about rapid cycling in a long cartridge with double radiused shoulder vs one with a 25-degree shoulder in a push feed action. It doesn't seem to bother the Mark Vs or the Howas so chambered, but 1) The original Weatherby action was a Mauser CRF type, if I'm not mistaken, produced in Germany (perhaps they have specially designed feed ramps that a 700 might not have?), and 2) My cartridge will have a much longer pointy bullet nose protruding out a good bit. This still may be a single feed proposition when all is said and done. The .264 holds 80.7 grains of water, but has little freebore by comparison.

So it was decided, and the moment was seized. A call to Manson Precision yielded the production of a reamer for the .250 MDC. The numerical bore diameter is used to help distinguish it from others in the quarterbore genre, as only the .250 Savage carries this designation, to my knowledge, while multiple cartridges use both .25 and .257. The M is the Roman Numeral translating from Latin to "mille," which is an adjective representing a quantity of 1000. This is the point in yards where the bullet will fall below the 1000 ft-lbs of energy threshold that has been recognized for years as the minimum level of energy needed to cleanly harvest deer. So it can be viewed as both max range for deer and minimum energy range. The DC stands for Deer Cartridge. I have a small series of DCs running currently. Others are based on short action, non-magnum rounds.

The 264 Win operates at a slightly higher max avg. pressure than the .257 Wby (64,000). Freebore of the new design is, you guessed it, 1/4 (.250"). This is both significantly less than the .257 Wby for better consistent accuracy, and significantly more than the .264 Win parent chamber to allow higher velocity at lower pressures.

I have ordered enough norma brass and Berger 133gr Elite Hunters (under $60/100 compared to larger caliber high BC bullets) to last, and will have the tooling by mid-June. A smith is lined up to switch barrels on my currently unused .338 Edge, and a 28" Brux barrel blank is on the way in 7.5 Twist and will finish at 27". I will swap the current HS Precision stock for an AG Composites. Many will cringe when I state the contour of the barrel is only #4, but I DETEST weight. That's why the 1/2 MOA Edge is being rebuilt. It will make the rifle more finicky, most likely, but I am confident, since I've never had a Brux barrel fail to produce at least 1/2" accuracy. It should be ready by August. I cannot argue that all one would need to to have an equally good round is resuce freebore on the available Weatherby offering by about 1/3, but I can argue the price of brass. Either way, new tooling and a new rifle would need to be built.

I had 2 .25 ICL Magnums that were basically necked down .264 Winchester Improved's with 45° degree shoulders. One was a heavy barrel and the other was a sporter weight, both had 1-10 twist rates and were build on 700 Remingtons. Both shot great with 120 grain bullets. Sold both thinking I'd go to a custom action and a faster twist rate for some of the new heavy weight bullets out there. Haven't gotten around to that yet.