New Mexico bans the use of scopes

[Clem Bronkoski]

Apparently not everyone on that committee thought this out. As one poster stated some have visual problems where they can't use open sights. Why not allow 1X power scopes or at least have an amendment that allows those with visual problems to use 1X scopes.

 

[CBS]

A lot of ML bullets do not exit big animals like elk and moose, resulting in lost game. At long range with a scope, this phenomenon only increases. There is a distance one should not take a shot with a muzzleloader, even if one is confident of placement because of the terminal ballistics of a muzzleloader projectile.

What a stupid comment! Exiting an animal is not the best way to measure the effectiveness of a projectile. If so we would all use fmj. My elk this year didn't have an exit wound and he still died.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I wonder if it's the smokeless ml that are the issue.
I can see the smokeless muzzleloaders having a negative affect on what's supposed to be alternative/primitive part of the season. Those things are the closest thing to a center fire rifle without it being that.

When a scoped inline ML using BH209 can push a 300gr Arrowhead bullet at 2600fps, how is that really that different than a .458 WM? The same ML using smokless (H322) is fully capable for 2800+fps.
I don't think it is the choice of powder that effects modern inline ML success.

 

[biednick]

Why not...have an amendment that allows those with visual problems to use 1X scopes.

They do. It's not clear exactly how it will work, but the game department director has the authority to let people with visual impairments use scopes.

 

[Ucsdryder]

@CMP70306 your argument is cyclical.
You say the gun/bullet makes more difference, but then if the guy can't use irons he can't hit anything.

Exactly. You saved me some typing. Take away that nightforce scope and replace it with a dovetail and post and let's see that 800 yard shot!

 

[APDDSN0864]

Or will this reduce the amount of kills, or leave more wounded elk to run off and die later and rot, some people only know what they read in books. No common sense

You're talking about the NM Game & Fish Commission. No common sense required to participate.

Ed

 

[PBramble]

So you're comparing a flint lock to an inline smokeless ML with modern day optics?!!! Not to mention you're picking out the most sophisticated weapon of the era, not the common hunting rifle that a normal hunter would possess and use. Come on…

No. the challenge was to find a muzzle loader from 150 years ago that would hang with a newer GW one. the Whitworth is that gun. And I by no means consider anything GW builds as run of the mill.

 

[CMP70306]

@CMP70306 your argument is cyclical.
You say the gun/bullet makes more difference, but then if the guy can't use irons he can't hit anything.

Iron sights are much more limiting in their functionality at all ranges when compared to scopes, this is especially apparent when the lighting is not great, such as early mornings, late evenings, heavy cloud cover or dark timber. In these cases having iron sights rather than a scope could result in a missed opportunity even at close range.

However they can be used effectively in good lighting, in other words a guy sitting on a hillside while the sun is out still has a reasonably good chance of hitting an elk sized vital target at several hundred yards with prior practice using a smokeless muzzleloader and high BC bullets.

Inversely by limiting the effective range of the rifle itself through bullet, powder, bore diameter or other requirements it doesn't really matter how good the scope is if you can't effectively shoot the rifle that far.

To make a long story less long taking the scope off a smokeless muzzleloader reduces its effectiveness from 800 to 400 yards but adding the best scope in the world to a 200 yard caplock doesn't make it an 800 yard rifle.

Exactly. You saved me some typing. Take away that nightforce scope and replace it with a dovetail and post and let's see that 800 yard shot!

You're missing the point, taking the scopes away hurts the guy in the timber trying to make a 100 yard shot close to dark, it doesn't stop the guy on the hill with the smokeless muzzleloader shooting long range with his highly adjustable sights, it just knocks his effective range from 800 to 400 yards. Write the rules to limit the rifles range and it doesn't matter what kind of scope they have on it.

 

[Rick Richard]

While I own an inline with scope mounted, it is almost completely used for target, gongs and similar shooting.
My hunting muzzle loaders (primitive weapons) are all side hammer versions, and some are with traditional adjustible sights and others wear longer range adjustable tangs. Once one learns how to use a good tang/vernier, consistent longer range hits/kills are very doable. Not really any different than using similar sights with a BP cartridge rifle like a Sharps or similar.

Yes, but you still have to have good eyes. Mine are aging and fixed sights don't do it.

 

[Swamplord]

Plenty of fudds supported this. Hunters really are our own worst enemy.

This ....

It gets even worse with long range hunting beyond 1000 yards

African "PH's and Alaskan guides can get pretty rabid and venomous in their attacks on long range hunters ... Even for mentioning it, they get all insane in the brain, simply because they have no experience, no proper gear (cartridges/rifles/optics etc) or even the remotest clue how it's done ... & because THEY self handicapped themselves, then surely nobody else should be allowed to do it ....

Banning a scope for hunting use & using "primitive" as an excuse is laughable..

You want primitive, then lash a chipped rock to a stick and walk to the hunting grounds ... Leave that $60k truck and $30k jetboat, SxS or Argo at home ...

"Some" hunters .. ARE our enemies ......

 

[IHFarmer07]

When a scoped inline ML using BH209 can push a 300gr Arrowhead bullet at 2600fps, how is that really that different than a .458 WM? The same ML using smokless (H322) is fully capable for 2800+fps.
I don't think it is the choice of powder that effects modern inline ML success.

It's not but it's a whole lot easier telling people to not use a smokeless ML than a ML using a black powder alternative.

Honestly percussion or flint should be it. If you want to use anything other than that, use it during the modern rifle season, there's no difference between using a center fire rifle and a ML using a 209 with smokeless and or an alternative powder to black powder, one is a little bit more time consuming to reload is all.
I think we both agree, the modern ML's are no different than a .458 WM in reality with modern components.

 

[Chadp82]

I did my first muzzleloader hunt this year. In CO, black powder or BP substitute only, no sabot, no scopes, and a few other things.

I enjoyed the heck out of it, but man what an eye opener. I figured my range was going to be 150 max, and after practice, decided it was 100 yds in the field. Open sights, round ball, .54 cal, started grouping about 6-8" at 50 yds, and after A LOT of practice I was under 3" at 100 yds. It was frustrating from the standpoint of grouping when I am used to 1" or less at 100yds with rifles. having not shot a muzzleloader for 25 years, last time being a teenager, it took some getting used to.

I will definitely do it again! And in the mean time use the muzzleloader now and again at the range to keep up on practice.

 

[Ucsdryder]

No. the challenge was to find a muzzle loader from 150 years ago that would hang with a newer GW one. the Whitworth is that gun. And I by no means consider anything GW builds as run of the mill.

The challenge was to find a muzzle loader that Joe blow could shoot as well as a gunwerks. I guess if you think a flintlock with a wood stock and black powder is the same as an inline with smokeless pellets, a carbon fiber stock, modern 15x scope…well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree…. If we lived closer and had access to both rifles, I'd bet my house the 99/99 people could shoot the gunwerks better. I'm shocked we're even arguing about it.

 

[Tac-O]

It is totally the entire system. A dialable high power scope enables more peoe more precise aiming at greater distances. The high power muzzleloader with sabots allows flatter shooting. Even a regular I line loaded up heavy with 777 and sabots and a vernier sight could reach way out there. Both the ignition, powder, and sights should be limited.