New hunting load development, 139gr Scenar

[warpig602]

Started to develop a new laod for my 6.5x55 using the 139gr Scenar. After not being able to get my nads on any N555 to try, I used the N165 I had on hand. I used the load date from Viht as the competent list was close to mine. Started with 5 charges and 3 shot groups:

The next day I chose 3 loads at 5 shots to try again either based on group size or chrono data. The 50gr group ALMOST pulled off a repeat performance, but sadly, the 5th shot was a deal breaker. I also noticed something when looking at the groups from both days. Ont the first day the POI were all relatively the same with each load. The 2nd day, each load seemed to creep down as the charge increased, which makes sense but why didnt it do that on day 1? The distance was 100 yards.

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My plan for today is re shoot the the 50gr and 48.5 load. If either repeat, I'll probably call it good. Thoughts, suggestions or advice?

 

[warpig602]

Well I dont know what happened today.

I shot this group first,48.5gr:

Then the 50gr which has been pretty much a .5 or better performer so far. To add further insult, the chrono data on the 50gr loads are about as good as it gets for me(although about 25fps higher than previous days)

Not sure where to look, my first thought was the scope but Im currently using a 5-25 NF ATACR in a Spuhr mount. I havent changed anything in regards to the loading process, temps/wind etc have all been consistent. I havent touched the scope since the first day in which I moved it about 1in left, no elevation adjustments have been made. Yet if you look at the groups over the last few days you'll see them creeping down.

In particular, the 5th shot from the 50gr group fired yesterday that dropped low has the same POI of where the first group started grouping today.

 

[Carlos88]

How is the rifle set up? Wood stock? Bedded? Free floated? 1-8?, etc.

P.S. I wouldn't put my nads on any N555 either.

 

[warpig602]

Synthetic stock, free floated, 1-8 twist, nf atacr 5-25 in a spuhr mount.

 

[warpig602]

Synthetic stock, free floated, 1-8 twist, nf atacr 5-25 in a spuhr mount.

Maybe if enough people know I put my nads on the powder they won't buy it.

 

[Carlos88]

Synthetic stock, free floated, 1-8 twist, nf atacr 5-25 in a spuhr mount.

Nice. You can tell me to go fly a kite at any point or go jump in a lake or whatever.

I take it your rig isn't bedded (fire up the song and dance machine). It only takes about 20in lbs of torque on action screws to stress an action. That's just shy of what scope rings are tightened to.

1. The action may be "bent" because the receiver mortise or lug recess are too low (or hi) as compared to the tang.
2. Another problem is a mag box that is too "tall" when in fact it should have about .020" between the mag box and the top of the receiver. It doesn't need to rattle around, it just needs to have enough clearance so it's not "stressed". If you don't want to grind on it then remove before the range trip and single load. Oh and make sure the action screws are not touching the stock. We can talk about bedding the bottom metal.
3. Make sure the midsection of the bolt handle (or any part) does not contact the stock.
4. Remove the scope and then unscrew the front ring, front screw. Grab a flashlight and peer down the hole. If you set a little shiny spot the screw is contacting the threads of the barrel (VERY common with custom barrels). Shorten screw about .010, reassemble and go shoot. Use Vibra-tite (from Loctite) on all your screws. They won't back out.
5. Bed your rifle or have it done. Bed tang, bed the receiver, lug and just past the chamber cylindrical part of the barrel or about 2.5in in front of the lug. The lug should be bedded tight-no clearance at all. Zero. Forget about bedding anything else in between. The action screws should NOT be used to tighten the the barreled action when you bed it.

You won't believe the following. Had a buddy with a 7mm Remington Mag that was an inconsistent shooter. Hair pulling inconsistent. I bedded the rifle as I explained. Went to the range with his same loads. The shots were about a foot left and 6 inches high from his previous POI. After correcting all his groups were under the Holy Grail of one inch. I then told him to remove the barreled action and then assemble the rifle and shoot one last group. Same POI as pre-disassembly. It took a lot of convincing for him to separate it after getting it to shoot consistently. About a year later he bought a McMillan and I bedded the rifle again. Went to the range and he started shooting before I was set up. He started giving me the business and saying the rifle now sucked again. I was stunned. No way I thought so I set up the the spotting scope and peered through the holes. The group was same as before except 1/4" right. Same elevation.

If you don't believe me send me a PM and I'll give you his number and you can text or call him. Refer to "meat and taters" (his 7 em em) when he answers.

Still with me? I didn't think I'd type this much tonight but there it is.

If your rifle isn't set up properly I don't care what kind of brass, primers, powders or bullets you shoot. The rifle will never be consistent (referring to sporters-all I own).

Thanks for reading this far.

Carlos

 

[NW Hunter]

I had the same thing happen to me last week.
Good previous groups now sucked.
I checked the torque on my action screws and found the rear screw came loose from it's 45 ft/lb torque.
I bumped up front and back to 55 in/ lbs and groups were better.
I also played with different case neck tensions.
I did a bushing neck tension test and found the bushing size .002" smaller then the one I had been using gave me a .221" 3 shot group.
Just food for thought.
By the way, thanks for the good deal on my VX5HD

 

[Carlos88]

Nice. You can tell me to go fly a kite at any point or go jump in a lake or whatever.

I take it your rig isn't bedded (fire up the song and dance machine). It only takes about 20in lbs of torque on action screws to stress an action. That's just shy of what scope rings are tightened to.

1. The action may be "bent" because the receiver mortise or lug recess are too low (or hi) as compared to the tang.
2. Another problem is a mag box that is too "tall" when in fact it should have about .020" between the mag box and the top of the receiver. It doesn't need to rattle around, it just needs to have enough clearance so it's not "stressed". If you don't want to grind on it then remove before the range trip and single load. Oh and make sure the action screws are not touching the stock. We can talk about bedding the bottom metal.
3. Make sure the midsection of the bolt handle (or any part) does not contact the stock.
4. Remove the scope and then unscrew the front ring, front screw. Grab a flashlight and peer down the hole. If you set a little shiny spot the screw is contacting the threads of the barrel (VERY common with custom barrels). Shorten screw about .010, reassemble and go shoot. Use Vibra-tite (from Loctite) on all your screws. They won't back out.
5. Bed your rifle or have it done. Bed tang, bed the receiver, lug and just past the chamber cylindrical part of the barrel or about 2.5in in front of the lug. The lug should be bedded tight-no clearance at all. Zero. Forget about bedding anything else in between. The action screws should NOT be used to tighten the the barreled action when you bed it.

You won't believe the following. Had a buddy with a 7mm Remington Mag that was an inconsistent shooter. Hair pulling inconsistent. I bedded the rifle as I explained. Went to the range with his same loads. The shots were about a foot left and 6 inches high from his previous POI. After correcting all his groups were under the Holy Grail of one inch. I then told him to remove the barreled action and then assemble the rifle and shoot one last group. Same POI as pre-disassembly. It took a lot of convincing for him to separate it after getting it to shoot consistently. About a year later he bought a McMillan and I bedded the rifle again. Went to the range and he started shooting before I was set up. He started giving me the business and saying the rifle now sucked again. I was stunned. No way I thought so I set up the the spotting scope and peered through the holes. The group was same as before except 1/4" right. Same elevation.

If you don't believe me send me a PM and I'll give you his number and you can text or call him. Refer to "meat and taters" (his 7 em em) when he answers.

Still with me? I didn't think I'd type this much tonight but there it is.

If your rifle isn't set up properly I don't care what kind of brass, primers, powders or bullets you shoot. The rifle will never be consistent (referring to sporters-all I own).

Thanks for reading this far.

Carlos

Maybe if enough people know I put my nads on the powder they won't buy it.

Lol.

 

[warpig602]

Nice. You can tell me to go fly a kite at any point or go jump in a lake or whatever.

I take it your rig isn't bedded (fire up the song and dance machine). It only takes about 20in lbs of torque on action screws to stress an action. That's just shy of what scope rings are tightened to.

1. The action may be "bent" because the receiver mortise or lug recess are too low (or hi) as compared to the tang.
2. Another problem is a mag box that is too "tall" when in fact it should have about .020" between the mag box and the top of the receiver. It doesn't need to rattle around, it just needs to have enough clearance so it's not "stressed". If you don't want to grind on it then remove before the range trip and single load. Oh and make sure the action screws are not touching the stock. We can talk about bedding the bottom metal.
3. Make sure the midsection of the bolt handle (or any part) does not contact the stock.
4. Remove the scope and then unscrew the front ring, front screw. Grab a flashlight and peer down the hole. If you set a little shiny spot the screw is contacting the threads of the barrel (VERY common with custom barrels). Shorten screw about .010, reassemble and go shoot. Use Vibra-tite (from Loctite) on all your screws. They won't back out.
5. Bed your rifle or have it done. Bed tang, bed the receiver, lug and just past the chamber cylindrical part of the barrel or about 2.5in in front of the lug. The lug should be bedded tight-no clearance at all. Zero. Forget about bedding anything else in between. The action screws should NOT be used to tighten the the barreled action when you bed it.

You won't believe the following. Had a buddy with a 7mm Remington Mag that was an inconsistent shooter. Hair pulling inconsistent. I bedded the rifle as I explained. Went to the range with his same loads. The shots were about a foot left and 6 inches high from his previous POI. After correcting all his groups were under the Holy Grail of one inch. I then told him to remove the barreled action and then assemble the rifle and shoot one last group. Same POI as pre-disassembly. It took a lot of convincing for him to separate it after getting it to shoot consistently. About a year later he bought a McMillan and I bedded the rifle again. Went to the range and he started shooting before I was set up. He started giving me the business and saying the rifle now sucked again. I was stunned. No way I thought so I set up the the spotting scope and peered through the holes. The group was same as before except 1/4" right. Same elevation.

If you don't believe me send me a PM and I'll give you his number and you can text or call him. Refer to "meat and taters" (his 7 em em) when he answers.

Still with me? I didn't think I'd type this much tonight but there it is.

If your rifle isn't set up properly I don't care what kind of brass, primers, powders or bullets you shoot. The rifle will never be consistent (referring to sporters-all I own).

Thanks for reading this far.

Carlos

While I do appreciate the reply and insight, none of these apply to my rifle being an R93. It's a pretty simple setup. The barrel mounts directly to a block in the stock via 2 screws. Bolt and housing assembly slide on from the back. Scope is mounted to the barrel

 

[warpig602]

I had the same thing happen to me last week.
Good previous groups now sucked.
I checked the torque on my action screws and found the rear screw came loose from it's 45 ft/lb torque.
I bumped up front and back to 55 in/ lbs and groups were better.
I also played with different case neck tensions.
I did a bushing neck tension test and found the bushing size .002" smaller then the one I had been using gave me a .221" 3 shot group.
Just food for thought.
By the way, thanks for the good deal on my VX5HD

I will typically play with neck tension to fine tune a load but I've never had a load shoot sub half minute groups on 2 consecutive days and then go 3moa when nothing load related had changed. That's why I was thinking mechanical or perhaps this barrel just fouls that quickly. It has 42 rounds through it since it was cleaned. If that's the case, that would be a new record for me.
I also find it odd that the POI started to shift noticeably.

 

[Carlos88]

Welp then I should go just in the lake. Hope you get it shooting like you want. Like the caliber BTW. Have a couple of sporters in 6.5x55. A Ruger 77 MKII and Model 70.

 

[warpig602]

It's all good, I've got a handful of rifles in 6.5x55 as well.
Maybe I'll clean the barrel tomorrow and see if it comes back.

 

[Carlos88]

I've seen fouling be an issue. Had a Remington Mountain Rifle in .260 and it wouldn't shoot unless it had at least ten rounds through it, about 50-55 rounds later it needed a good cleaning, then 10 bad ones, etc.

 

[lancetkenyon]

Everyone knows you can't shoot a match/target bullet for hunting game...

Same batch of brass? Virgin vs fired/sized? Same case prep?
Same batch primers?
Same batch powder?
Same lot/box bullets?
Temp/humidity/wind/light differences?
Parallax set on scope?
Checked torque on all bolts for rifle/mount/scope?