I've written several posts in the past about fire forming correctly. Not the caveman way of some little dose of hot powder and some filler. I have a few wildcat barrel burners and you can't waste a barrel fire forming cases. You just load the full power AI powder weight charge and bullets and use them just like the AI rounds. I did a bunch of chrono testing while fire forming different calibers and they all fit in the ES range. none of the FF primers showed excessive pressure.
New fire-formed brass "Trim to...." question
- Thread starter Jesse09
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highfinblue
Well-Known Member
As a general rule they probably should not be, especially a lever action shooting flat nose or round nose bullets, but I used to have a Savage 340 I believe was the model, and that thing would shoot. Can't remember the load as it was many years ago, but my handloads with spire point bullets shot groups at 250 yards that were better than almost any rifle around at that time. That little sucker would shoot. A good friend talked me out of it because he has been so good to me there's no way I could say no. He has given me guns, knives, a Lamiglas surf rod that has over $400 in components not even counting the labor cost to build it, and that was thirty years ago. I would follow the advice given here and keep loading and shooting as I beleive the brass will eventually lengthen in the neck, and I have never found perfect neck length (always try to keep them in SAAMI) being that big a deal for really accurate loads. I agree with the statements here that neck tension is a much bigger issue.
I totally agree with you that most 30-30 rounds are crimped, and mostly due to the tubular magazine. I crimp every cartridge that I reload for. Straight walled or bottle necked it doesn't matter. I use the Lee Factory Crimp dies for my crimping needs, they are cartridge specific. Lee will also make a crimp die for wildcat cartridges if you send them a dummy round. I have had the company make crimp dies for the .270AI and also for a .375 Raptor. These dies put in a good crimp and they are extremely forgiving when it comes to case overall length, especially when it comes to the straight walled cases. Unlike the roll crimp, the crimp is squeezed into the case/bullet by the use of a collet. I load for the .450 Bushmaster and the 45-70, the Lee die makes this process a whole lot more forgiving than any roll crimp process. In a circumstance such as the OP has written about, case overall length and crimping would not be an issue. With the press ramp toggled all the way up, screw the crimp die down until the bottom of the die touches the shell holder, then screw the crimp die 1/2 a turn and start crimping the brass.
I would also like to share that with the .270 Ackley Improved it has been my experience that no matter how many times the case has been fired it does not stretch enough to make up the differences in case overall length. I usually will fireform 60-100 cases, find the shortest case in the lot and trim the entire batch to the same length. From some of the replies that I have read this does not seem to matter as far as accuracy is concerned. I am just not too sure about this approach???
Jesse09
Well-Known Member
Thank you, all:
I think you've given me my answers, so I'd like to fill in the back-story for your amusement and history, prompted by Dan1953's questioning if "30-30" and "precision" can be used together.
The firearm is a now discontinued single shot T/C G2 break-open pistol that I first bought in 30-30 Win caliber decades ago. I just wanted something "different" to use for Eastern white-tail deer hunting out to 300 yards. After load development (MOA at 100 yards) it met that requirement. Happy years passed until I tore my rotator cuff and subsequently experienced a good bit of pain each time I shot that pistol. I turned it over to a prominent authority and former protégé of P.O. Ackley for installation of a muzzle brake to reduce the felt recoil.
Instead of adding the muzzle brake to the end of the 14" barrel, he cut into the barrel for the braking effect after assuring me that the loss of muzzle velocity would "not be significant". He was wrong and I was left with a 200 yard deer pistol. Coincidentally, I had just bought hunting property that gave me a potential 400-yard food plot location; and I had the rotator cuff surgically repaired. So, I bought a custom 17" 30-30 A.I. barrel fitted to the pistol frame. (The small, light frame limited my caliber choices.)
I was successful in load development and the pistol was deer hunting adequate at 400 yards. A year or so ago I just happened to drag a wire inside a fired case and discovered incipient case separation that I then confirmed in the remainder of my brass. It was then that I asked for input from this forum's members because I didn't know a reliable way to measure headspace on my break-open action. I was directed to a shoulder comparator that allowed me to fine tune headspace and the problem was seemingly solved. One of the contributors was Bob Wright; he later PM'd with me on new load development and ladder testing. During that time case separation re-appeared. We eventually traced that to the frame-to-barrel flex at firing recoil, and managed that with a combination of headspace adjustments and frame to barrel shims.
Now, months later, the incipient case separation has returned. The explanation: The pistol closes and releases the hammer block when two locking lugs are seated. The lugs intermittently would appear locked, but the hammer block would not release. I solved that by increasing headspace; i.e., seating the brass deeper into the barrel and then forcefully snapping the action shut. BUT, the increased headspace led to the new case separation episode.
In all the years I've been chasing my tail with this pistol, I've never read anything about locking lug problems other than the recommendation to stone them if they were too large to move freely in their recessed position. After driving them out of the frame I found that the frame recess that houses them was full of decades of thick sludge that inhibited their free movement. As simple as cleaning that pocket, the problem is solved.
That brings us up to date and is the reason I'm now fire-forming new brass.
Bob, good to hear from you; you and MagnumMania mentioned crimping and neck tension. I don't crimp after finding that the Lee crimper shrank the extreme muzzle velocity spread but opened my groups. Maybe it exerted uneven neck tension? I set the neck tension to the minimum that resists my hand-pressing the bullet into the brass. That works as long as the bullet doesn't encounter the lands when I snap the action shut.
So, I'm in agreement with Bob, Gorilla@, MagnumMania and RD57 to standardize neck tension, no trimming for now, watch and wait for case lengthening (doubt it will be significant), and after maybe two more firings trim the cases to some uniform length, not necessarily the minimal specification.
I think you've given me my answers, so I'd like to fill in the back-story for your amusement and history, prompted by Dan1953's questioning if "30-30" and "precision" can be used together.
The firearm is a now discontinued single shot T/C G2 break-open pistol that I first bought in 30-30 Win caliber decades ago. I just wanted something "different" to use for Eastern white-tail deer hunting out to 300 yards. After load development (MOA at 100 yards) it met that requirement. Happy years passed until I tore my rotator cuff and subsequently experienced a good bit of pain each time I shot that pistol. I turned it over to a prominent authority and former protégé of P.O. Ackley for installation of a muzzle brake to reduce the felt recoil.
Instead of adding the muzzle brake to the end of the 14" barrel, he cut into the barrel for the braking effect after assuring me that the loss of muzzle velocity would "not be significant". He was wrong and I was left with a 200 yard deer pistol. Coincidentally, I had just bought hunting property that gave me a potential 400-yard food plot location; and I had the rotator cuff surgically repaired. So, I bought a custom 17" 30-30 A.I. barrel fitted to the pistol frame. (The small, light frame limited my caliber choices.)
I was successful in load development and the pistol was deer hunting adequate at 400 yards. A year or so ago I just happened to drag a wire inside a fired case and discovered incipient case separation that I then confirmed in the remainder of my brass. It was then that I asked for input from this forum's members because I didn't know a reliable way to measure headspace on my break-open action. I was directed to a shoulder comparator that allowed me to fine tune headspace and the problem was seemingly solved. One of the contributors was Bob Wright; he later PM'd with me on new load development and ladder testing. During that time case separation re-appeared. We eventually traced that to the frame-to-barrel flex at firing recoil, and managed that with a combination of headspace adjustments and frame to barrel shims.
Now, months later, the incipient case separation has returned. The explanation: The pistol closes and releases the hammer block when two locking lugs are seated. The lugs intermittently would appear locked, but the hammer block would not release. I solved that by increasing headspace; i.e., seating the brass deeper into the barrel and then forcefully snapping the action shut. BUT, the increased headspace led to the new case separation episode.
In all the years I've been chasing my tail with this pistol, I've never read anything about locking lug problems other than the recommendation to stone them if they were too large to move freely in their recessed position. After driving them out of the frame I found that the frame recess that houses them was full of decades of thick sludge that inhibited their free movement. As simple as cleaning that pocket, the problem is solved.
That brings us up to date and is the reason I'm now fire-forming new brass.
Bob, good to hear from you; you and MagnumMania mentioned crimping and neck tension. I don't crimp after finding that the Lee crimper shrank the extreme muzzle velocity spread but opened my groups. Maybe it exerted uneven neck tension? I set the neck tension to the minimum that resists my hand-pressing the bullet into the brass. That works as long as the bullet doesn't encounter the lands when I snap the action shut.
So, I'm in agreement with Bob, Gorilla@, MagnumMania and RD57 to standardize neck tension, no trimming for now, watch and wait for case lengthening (doubt it will be significant), and after maybe two more firings trim the cases to some uniform length, not necessarily the minimal specification.
Seabeeken
Well-Known Member
Ive never had any of the brass for my 6 ai chambered rifles to to proper trim length. The primer pockets wear out before they stretch. After mine are fully formed, i trim only enough to square up the mouth because it seems many aren't square.
Jesse09
Well-Known Member
Alibiiv, thanks for the input on the Lee crimper. I do use it without problems with other firearms, just not this one.
Highfinblue, you're reinforcing the vote for neck tension's importance. Thanks.
Lenny Foffa, I'm filing away your chamber length ideas for the future.
RD57, I've got you beat in one category: I've been at this for 70 years, but have to admit I haven't learned as much as I should have in all that time.
Highfinblue, you're reinforcing the vote for neck tension's importance. Thanks.
Lenny Foffa, I'm filing away your chamber length ideas for the future.
RD57, I've got you beat in one category: I've been at this for 70 years, but have to admit I haven't learned as much as I should have in all that time.
Trim all to 2.019"
Bob Wright
Well-Known Member
Glad to see you're still hammering away with that pistol!
Jesse09
Well-Known Member
It keeps me humble.
