new brass vs fire formed?

[boomtube]

"...groups shrink down considerably when using fire-formed brass when compared to new. In my case I believe fire-formed brass gives much better headspace when I control shoulder bump to .002". I also find regular annealing helps too. Maybe it will be too much to say I use a concentricity gage to identify errors/differences in my process and reduce runout ... "

Two questions:

1. 'Considerable' tells us nothing; how much change did you see?

2. Is it at least possible that a considerable part of that 'considerable' change do you attribute to "fireforming" as opposed to the use of that concentricity gage and maybe some other advanced loading techniques as well?

Bottom line, cause and effect sometimes get scrambled. In a very long time of reloading I've never seen any dramatic or consistant accuracy difference between fired and virgin cases but I have seen accuracy degrade as cases age, even with regular annealing. Ditto every other experienced handloader I've discussed the question with. ??

 

[flashhole]

Group size change for my Ruger #1V 25-06 went from about 2" - 2.5" at 100 yards to this. This is a target shot at 150 yards.

Using fire-formed brass really was (and still is) the trick to accuracy with this gun. I developed the load in the picture before I purchased a concentricity gage. This particular load was a neck size only on the brass, you can see the vertical collet marks on the case neck from the Lee Collet Neck Die. Also with this gun I have taken to making my own 25-06 brass from 30-06 brass.

 

[Mikecr]

I've seen it, I've seen where others have noticed new brass as faster than fireformed brass, and I believe it makes sense given factors behind it.
With new & formed H20 capacities known(mine), I have validated much of it using QuickLoad and an Oehler w/20' screen spacing.

Depending on OP's chamber and load he may or may not hold large % disparities in capacity of new-vs-old brass. I suggest he test to see if it's a matter he should be mindful of -if he intends to mix brass in the future.

It seems(to me) the conservative thing to do.

 

[Wheatgerm]

Looks like I have missed alot in the last 24 hours..
im not exactly mixing brass as much as I am breaking in my brass. I started with 20 factory rounds to condition the barrel, then reloaded those rounds with different steps of powder and found the one that shot the best... also found the bullet seating that maybe not the BEST but is working very well. (My last load was 5 shots .75 inch group. Im happy with that for now) so I went out and got new brass so I could have more than 20 rounds to shoot at a time.

It makes sense to me that the fire formed brass will shoot different than the virgin brass. I was just curious as to HOW MUCH different it would shoot. As someone stated before I don't want to just go out and blast 100 rounds into the dirt. I would like to do some testing with them or have a little fun playing with my scope and turrets or something along that line if it would mean any progress with perfecting my load.

I just didn't know if I could work towards improving my load with virgin brass is was my very basic question was. Thanks for the input everyone

 

[RTK]

My .02 cents on what I do with virgin brass, usually remington. I work up my ladder test with it noting average velocity for each powder charge and pic the one I feel is best.. Then with the once fired brass I play with seating depth of the powder range I like the best from previous shooting and also "note" average velocities. "Sometimes" I find certain velocities, which I relate to harmonics, tend to group better and that is were I "sometimes" end up at for my best load for a given bullet. By this time my loads are usually shooting better than when I shot them the first time

 

[boomtube]

"Group size change for my Ruger #1V 25-06 went from about 2" - 2.5" at 100 yards to this. This is a target shot at 150 yards. "

Very nice group at that distance from any rifle, great from a #1 in that caliber. But... same cases, bullets, primers, powder and lot, charge weight, seater die, same OAL, same crimp and all made on the same press exactly the same as the 2"+ stuff? And all shot from the same bench, same rest, same winds and the same scope, etc.? All meaning, was use of Lee's excellant neck sizer the ONLY difference between the large and small groups?

 

[rscott5028]

Group size change for my Ruger #1V 25-06 went from about 2" - 2.5" at 100 yards to this. This is a target shot at 150 yards.

Using fire-formed brass really was (and still is) the trick to accuracy with this gun. I developed the load in the picture before I purchased a concentricity gage. This particular load was a neck size only on the brass, you can see the vertical collet marks on the case neck from the Lee Collet Neck Die. Also with this gun I have taken to making my own 25-06 brass from 30-06 brass.

It's highly uncharacteristic for properly loaded virgin brass to shoot 2.5 MOA and then turn around and shoot sub-MOA simply because they were neck sized.

But, none of us can deny that this was your own personal experience.

As Mikecr pointed out, the OP should try it for himself and document the results for his own point of reference.

-- richard

 

[RangerBrad]

I am somewhat new to reloading and one thought comes to mind as I read this. If speed and accuracy are the same with virgin brass as once fired brass why when we reload do we simply push the shoulder back a couple of thousands instead of always full length resizing? And will the shooter see a diffrent poi with full length resized brass vs. the same brass that after reloaded, simply has the shoulder pushed back a couple of thousands? Brad

 

[FEENIX]

Here's a similar thread 3 years ago ...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/virgin-brass-vs-fire-formed-39540/

 

[rscott5028]

I am somewhat new to reloading and one thought comes to mind as I read this. If speed and accuracy are the same with virgin brass as once fired brass why when we reload do we simply push the shoulder back a couple of thousands instead of always full length resizing? And will the shooter see a diffrent poi with full length resized brass vs. the same brass that after reloaded, simply has the shoulder pushed back a couple of thousands? Brad

I never said they were identical.

I simply stated that virgin brass can produce excellent results.

Many shooters, including some benchresters, get excellent results by FL sizing every time.

Also, those who are "bumping the shoulder" are typically FL sizing.

-- richard

 

[boomtube]

"...those who are "bumping the shoulder" are typically FL sizing."

Those who are bumping shoulders ARE FL sizing for that chamber. Any difference between FL sizing/neck sizing vs new cases any difference will typically be quite small and in which direction it will go has to be tested before saying what it is for THAT rig. Anyone guru saying what anything will do for anyone else will likely lie to you about other stuff too.

 

[Wheatgerm]

so... the main question is, if im happy with my load and have a bunch of virgin brass left whats the best thing to do with it?

 

[RTK]

Slowly shot all of it so that it will be ready to go when you need it.

 

[Bart B]

I bought 100 new pieces of brass and was wondering if the first time I load them up will they be not at accurate as the 2nd time around? I know fire formed brass is always better but don't really understand why or what it helps.

Consider what new brass has done in the past. . . . . .

Good commercial .308 Win. match ammo's shot no worse than 4 inches at 600 yards in service rifles used by USA military rifle teams; both in M1 Garands and the M14 versions.

Years ago, when 30 caliber belted magnums were "the" thing to use in 1000-yard rifle matches fired from the prone position, virtually all the matches won and records set were done with brand spankin' new cases or fired cases properly full length sized back to new case dimensions. Properly tested, they'll shoot inside 7 inches at 1000 in good rifles; same as what the benchrest rifles do.

International Palma Rifle Matches are held around the world and everybody has to use the same ammo. It's precision stuff loaded by arsenals or ammo companies, but all with brand spankin' new .308 Win. cases. In good rifles, it'll shoot about 1/2 MOA at 600 yards and about 3/4 MOA at 1000.

"...those who are "bumping the shoulder" are typically FL sizing."

What if they're using Niel Jones neck sizing bushing dies with their bottoms matching case shoulder diameters and angles so shoulders can be set back without reducing body diameters.

"Sometimes" I find certain velocities, which I relate to harmonics, tend to group better and that is were I "sometimes" end up at for my best load for a given bullet. By this time my loads are usually shooting better than when I shot them the first time

I hope you're not believing the rifle barrel vibrates at different frequencies for each muzzle velocity produced. 'Tain't the way it is; the barrel vibrates at the exact same low frequency for every shot fired regardless of how fast a bullet leaves. The only difference is its muzzle axis whips through a greater range of angles with high pressure loads and a lesser range with low pressure loads.