New .338 Cal-210gr Hammer HHT

[fordy]

Gday magnum

I have a stack of B709's ready to go, however, I couldn't contact customs to confirm which designation I need for bullets, have the correct one for brass.

Cheers.

Cool
On your copy of the b709a you will need to have it specify projectiles not bullets as the yanks get it all mixed up lol

& it will need to specify the quantity which is not a issue if it states more than your actually bringing in which is what I do anyway eg I get a 1000 projectile number on permit yet only bring 500 to 800 in

This just stops any questions as I've had every box opened & counted & make sure it's caliber specific to that shipment

Hope that answers your questions & I'd personally not order less than 4 boxes as man alive the freight kills you on 1 or 2 boxes but 8 is good if they come under the duty allowance as that sucks if another 10% is added on top of the whole lot

Let me know anything I've not covered or bought up let alone clear on lol

Cheers

 

[MagnumManiac]

@fordy Thanks for the info. I'll send you a PM in a few days. Have had to import brass, but not bullets and do not see how a permit is required…

Cheers.

 

[ButterBean]

I'm gonna see how the Edge likes em

 

[fordy]

Gday magnum
If you want in that pm give me your number & I'll ring if your upto it or I can give you mine & ring when your feeling ok or just go through the pm I'm cool either way

On a state base no issues with projectiles but under boarder force it includes any part of ammunition ( component) but i totally agree it's stupid but I've had some items seized & some I've got through after producing permits others have been destroyed

I've got contacts in abf that I'll gladly pass on ( I'll confirm with them first ) as those get you through way quicker if the shipment is held up

You may also be able to get a B709DA that will simplify the process over time but I'm not able to get that permit due to Tassie police won't issue that particular permit to anyone even my mate who is a dealer

The other thing while I remember is if you order send a copy of your permit to Steve & he can then attach that in the order so if it's opened @ the port of entry it simplifies the process of what they do

Cheers

 

[BEEMAN]

I'm gonna see how the Edge likes em

What powder are you going to try?

 

[ButterBean]

What powder are you going to try?

Something in the H4350 burn rate is where I'll need to be

 

[FireFlyFishing]

I dig the color. Has a "surfs up" feel to them.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I settled on the 246 HH in my 338 edge...could not get the 260 up to 3000 fps in my 25 inch barrel with H1000. Tried the 246 and got 3100 fps. with the same powder. Hoping you will be making a comparable HHT to the 246 HH.

Hmm... stay tuned!

 

[Quintus]

I settled on the 246 HH in my 338 edge...could not get the 260 up to 3000 fps in my 25 inch barrel with H1000. Tried the 246 and got 3100 fps. with the same powder. Hoping you will be making a comparable HHT to the 246 HH.

I went with the 236 in the RUM with 3100 in mind. I made it and will settle in right at 3160, but now that the 220HHT showed up the day after this 210 it has the wheels turning. The only purpose of my RUM is to be able to stem to stern a 9' bear that may already have an arrow in it. I may have to see if I can get 3400 out of the 210 and see if there is an appreciable difference between it and the 236 in penetration and length of permanent wound channel. Maybe I just need to wait and see if there is a 235HHT on the way.

 

[fordy]

Gday quintus

I went with the 236 in the RUM with 3100 in mind. I made it and will settle in right at 3160, but now that the 220HHT showed up the day after this 210 it has the wheels turning. The only purpose of my RUM is to be able to stem to stern a 9' bear that may already have an arrow in it. I may have to see if I can get 3400 out of the 210 and see if there is an appreciable difference between it and the 236 in penetration and length of permanent wound channel. Maybe I just need to wait and see if there is a 235HHT on the way.

That's a great discussion right there in your post above & if you or others would like to dabble in hypotheticals I'm all in

So on the outside looking in & a little assumption on our parts & just take a touch off your 236 load so not inflating one against the other
& Using old thumb rule of 100 fps per 10 gr
The following seem fairly realistic

The 210 @3350
The 220 @3250
The hypothetical 235 @ 3100

Now add the part of a bear with a arrow in it & oh how I'm out of my depth here
Which needs to be despatched asap & as quickly as possible ( 2 different things in my mind )

So this would be a frontal shot & one that needs to knock the stuffing out of him quick really quick ( no delayed killing here would be wanted )

So this gives us some parameters to work with or should say towards & in my mind the following applies

Range :
be 5 to 50 yard on outside chance of following up a hit bear & it erupts from 50 yard ( once again huge assumption on my part but trying for conversation & hypothetical) so range would be from there & in

Velocity impact :
This leaves us with ea pill loosing around 2fps per yard as a yardstick
So 10 to 100 fps for the 5 &50 yard mark

Now we get into the depths of impacts & what they do to critters & once again broadly speaking as it ultimately comes down to pill design & characteristics that will give us our true results of a pill's capabilities

So I'll leave this for a second & go to the next part as without looking @ this first it dosent matter how fast or slow you impact your potentially in for a world of hurt real quickly

So it's onto

Penertration requirements :

You put stem to stern on a 9ft bear
Which I assume the following you'll need around 40 in of penertration to reach the gut on a frontal but I don't like to just reach I want more as compression comes in here & the last 1/4 to 1/3 of total penertration is basically useless in a wound channel as the best work it will do is in the firs 2/3 to 3/4 of penertration capabilities

So I want 50 in total penertration

So can the pills named above give that
I can only work on what I've seen & saw information with a great guy that helped me gather information on the 210 hht & on those tests recently
We found penetration capabilities of 31in & fairly tough resistance in some of that length with the shank & couple petals @ that length showing no real slowdown in the shanks speed ( it will have , just still gave a nice wound channel ) so I'm going to assume it would get close to to the 50 in mark for total penetration or close to it

So that being the lightest & if the other 2 pills behave exactly the same ( which I highly doubt ) all 3 are going to give adequate penertration so no clear winner here & now need to go back to the velocity impact

So on these numbers I'll put a x through the 235 as it's impact will be around 3000 while no slouch it will potentially show a slight less critter reaction & when you impact @3200 plus things just step up another notch ( a balanced pill for that application is still paramount not just speed)

So leaves me with the 210&220 as those will be around that 3200 plus mark impact but the 210 has it covered @the 50 yard mark no doubt

So the next part of the equation is why not lighter again & get to 3500 plus impacts

I'd be extremely conservative on this approach on the big nasty critters & need to do some pretty extensive testing before I'd be happy to even contemplate that idea in this hypothetical case as I'm assuming that penertration would be lessened a fair bit & back to the 3 ft total penetration length with a 180ish weight pill to get 3600 MV to get to those 3500 impact levels
That's based off the capability's of the 175hh & 205ph shank weights but is definitely only a theory base & was just to get people ticking on a application of merit to one's specific requirements & I do believe over penetration is definitely better than under especially with these guys more so

& lastly once again I've got no idea on bears so I'd love to delve a little deeper/further so I can understand what you guys are up against & I may be able to relate another critters terminal results in a better format than I just put up in my head as I'm totally @ sea with bears
Eg a big cat needs velocity to shut them down quickly & you put a big slow meplat into one & fair chance he will make it to you to say gday unless cns is impacted
So do bears react the same or is it a knock the locomotion out like is best on elephant ( I don't think so ) or a combination like on buff or something else as these bears intrigue me a fair bit ( that's follow up like in this example of quintas but still has similar traits to normal shots imo )

Looking forward if anyone wants to chew the fat & school me better on bears

Cheers

 

[MagnumManiac]

Hey @fordy, I 'm interested in the 210g to go with my 338WM, velocity wise I have zero idea what it will get, looking at other info H4350 looks the goods.
Now, in my 338-416 Rigby Improved 45°, my 9" twist won't work with heavies in this list, so what do you recommend? I am retiring that barrel and moving on to a 33XC 8" twist next year.

Cheers.

 

[fordy]

Gday magnum
We were a little short on pills as 100 of them was all we had & didn't do a lot of work up as terminal data was the key as no data had been collected on this pill & a couple guys I've come to call friends ( one a close one these days) were heading into big bear country so I was annoying the hammerboys bigtime to get this pill into their hands if it worked of course ( the gen one of the 338 never made it as they were not working below 2100 impacts ) & one of those guys hopefully has one on the ground as I type & the other goes in a few days so we will get to the bottom of what this 210 hht is capable of as true life are better than my assumptions

Moving forward we settled on using 2209 & 74.5 gr in rem brass & fed 215 primers for 3027 MV out of a sako 338wm
No pressure @ all but capacity was basically reached ( I don't like compressed loads so no further increases were done & I was out of Bertrum brass ) so usual start lower if you go that powder
So you could go with 2209 ( h4350 for you yanks as it's the same powder ) no doubt in the wm but I'd like to explore 2208 (varget ) & 2206h ( h4895 ) as I think they have more merit using hammers imo

As for the 338-416 I've got no idea as I'm a complete novice on wildcats & like factory chamberings ( not a go against those who do I'm just a plain Jane who likes to keep things simple ) but I'd look @ powders in the 85% case capacity off your history with that chambering as gives you room for moving as hammers have a knack of being able to be pushed faster

Hope that all makes sense

Cheers

 

[Quintus]

Gday quintus


That's a great discussion right there in your post above & if you or others would like to dabble in hypotheticals I'm all in

So on the outside looking in & a little assumption on our parts & just take a touch off your 236 load so not inflating one against the other
& Using old thumb rule of 100 fps per 10 gr
The following seem fairly realistic

The 210 @3350
The 220 @3250
The hypothetical 235 @ 3100

Now add the part of a bear with a arrow in it & oh how I'm out of my depth here
Which needs to be despatched asap & as quickly as possible ( 2 different things in my mind )

So this would be a frontal shot & one that needs to knock the stuffing out of him quick really quick ( no delayed killing here would be wanted )

So this gives us some parameters to work with or should say towards & in my mind the following applies

Range :
be 5 to 50 yard on outside chance of following up a hit bear & it erupts from 50 yard ( once again huge assumption on my part but trying for conversation & hypothetical) so range would be from there & in

Velocity impact :
This leaves us with ea pill loosing around 2fps per yard as a yardstick
So 10 to 100 fps for the 5 &50 yard mark

Now we get into the depths of impacts & what they do to critters & once again broadly speaking as it ultimately comes down to pill design & characteristics that will give us our true results of a pill's capabilities

So I'll leave this for a second & go to the next part as without looking @ this first it dosent matter how fast or slow you impact your potentially in for a world of hurt real quickly

So it's onto

Penertration requirements :

You put stem to stern on a 9ft bear
Which I assume the following you'll need around 40 in of penertration to reach the gut on a frontal but I don't like to just reach I want more as compression comes in here & the last 1/4 to 1/3 of total penertration is basically useless in a wound channel as the best work it will do is in the firs 2/3 to 3/4 of penertration capabilities

So I want 50 in total penertration

So can the pills named above give that
I can only work on what I've seen & saw information with a great guy that helped me gather information on the 210 hht & on those tests recently
We found penetration capabilities of 31in & fairly tough resistance in some of that length with the shank & couple petals @ that length showing no real slowdown in the shanks speed ( it will have , just still gave a nice wound channel ) so I'm going to assume it would get close to to the 50 in mark for total penetration or close to it

So that being the lightest & if the other 2 pills behave exactly the same ( which I highly doubt ) all 3 are going to give adequate penertration so no clear winner here & now need to go back to the velocity impact

So on these numbers I'll put a x through the 235 as it's impact will be around 3000 while no slouch it will potentially show a slight less critter reaction & when you impact @3200 plus things just step up another notch ( a balanced pill for that application is still paramount not just speed)

So leaves me with the 210&220 as those will be around that 3200 plus mark impact but the 210 has it covered @the 50 yard mark no doubt

So the next part of the equation is why not lighter again & get to 3500 plus impacts

I'd be extremely conservative on this approach on the big nasty critters & need to do some pretty extensive testing before I'd be happy to even contemplate that idea in this hypothetical case as I'm assuming that penertration would be lessened a fair bit & back to the 3 ft total penetration length with a 180ish weight pill to get 3600 MV to get to those 3500 impact levels
That's based off the capability's of the 175hh & 205ph shank weights but is definitely only a theory base & was just to get people ticking on a application of merit to one's specific requirements & I do believe over penetration is definitely better than under especially with these guys more so

& lastly once again I've got no idea on bears so I'd love to delve a little deeper/further so I can understand what you guys are up against & I may be able to relate another critters terminal results in a better format than I just put up in my head as I'm totally @ sea with bears
Eg a big cat needs velocity to shut them down quickly & you put a big slow meplat into one & fair chance he will make it to you to say gday unless cns is impacted
So do bears react the same or is it a knock the locomotion out like is best on elephant ( I don't think so ) or a combination like on buff or something else as these bears intrigue me a fair bit ( that's follow up like in this example of quintas but still has similar traits to normal shots imo )

Looking forward if anyone wants to chew the fat & school me better on bears

Cheers

Thanks for the reply fordy, and good day to you,
. The bear part of this is the real trick. Couple of things to note.
I will not be the archer so shot angle could be any. I have not seen a brown bear arrowed, but if they are like the rest of the bears I have seen, you still don't know what your gonna get. The one thing you do know with a bow is that weather they spin, roll, or run, even with a good hit you have a supercharged bear for 1 to 5 minutes and a poor hit just leaves you with a supercharged bear. I do have some test media in mind in the form of 600 plus pound boar pigs you can find at the auction pretty cheap, but that is alot to deal with so it will be a small sample. I am in the speed kills camp, but for this application I want to make sure I also have enough momentum in the shank to smash what it hits all the way through. I am certain I am overthinking this, but I have the time to prep so down the hole we go.

 

[Mike Matteson]

It shouldn't be a real problem to acheive 210 gr bullet to 3000fps. Including using H4350. I have a load that was develop in or about 1999 in a Ruger Mark 11 using a 210 gr Barns. Using Fed 210, H4350 @ 74.50 grs, doing 3050fps, Temp was 75 dgr.
NOW THIS IS A HOT LOAD. GREAT CARE WILL NEED TO BUILD THIS LOAD. DON'T GO TO THIS OVER MAX LOAD DIRECTLY. WORKING YOUR INCREASE ON POWDER LOADS, STARTING AT RELOADING MANUAL LOWEST STARTING POINT AND INCREASING BY NO MORE THAN .5 GRS AT A TIME PER CASE FIRED. WATCHING FOR PRESSURE SIGNS AS EACH CASE IS FIRED.
It sure makes an interesting bullet to be used, and loads work up.
The other is my ruger 77 in a Mark 11 is a 1-10 twist rate. That should work out just fine.