Need Help With Grizzly Bear Question

[dakor]

Well I dont think you need a .577 to kill a Brown Bear I think a 300 Win mag on up will work just fine. By the way the 375 H&H is on the way.

Get this deal when my dad told me what he paid for it I could not believe it. He bought a 375 H&H Rem 700 BDL Classic with the dies, bullets, brass, and loaded Ammo for $375 Bucks

I think that was a pretty good deal and the gun shoots under a inch to boot! I will have to spend alot of time with it and see how I shoot it. Now I have something to ask about big game hunting and maybe someone can explain this to me. People do not think twice about shooting a Bison with a 30/06 but when you mention a Cape Buffalo they say use a 375 or larger? A bison is bigger than a Cape Buffalo and just as tough and dangerous if not more and it is also bigger than a Brown Bear and just as tough and can run 35 miles an hour! Can someone explain this? Is there something wrong with this picture? I have seen a Bison on a hunting show take 3 hits from a 375 H&H one of them broke his shoulder and it took 4 more from a 404 Jefferys to put him down when they went up to claim their Trophy.

 

[Guest]

Gowge, I read that excerpt you posted. That guy was one parnoid dude!

I mean there is a difference big bore and insane big bore! 450 not enought for cape buffalo and even the 577 is too small? This is nuts.

I think Dakor would be better off with the 375 H&H than the 300WM. But if it was all he had I think he would be ok. Remember, he will have backup weapons like shotguns and pistols. He doesn't need a 458 lott or 460 weatherby. They will work great, obviously but the 375 H&H will knock'em dead....and dead is dead!

Also, the bullets today are not the bullets of 1893. A 270 barnes is a LOT of bullet.

 

[Guest]

WEll....

I'm gonna chime in here... been in Big Bear Country for awhile... made it through a few charges and an attack...

I carry a 41 mag with me in the hills.. not sure it is even enough for an emergency.. old.. saying here.... carry a six shooter.. 5 for the bear and the last one for you... kinda sums it up....

I never have nor ever will want to hunt the big bears... just not a real challenge for me...and to boot they get real ****ed when you shoot them...

but.. if I were going to hunt them... here's my theory...

get a big caliber.. 338 min... drive them hard and fast... and into the head or spine... a good taxidermist can fix your wounds...

bullets, rapid expansion but non fragmenting...driven deep and long... hence large bullets driven fast....

when you hit him and he goes down the first time... don't wait for him to get up... 2 more in him when he's down...

I see mention of the big doubles... i still wonder about them.. big and powerful yes... but only 2 shots.. not for me and dangerous game.... like Brent said... have more ready... asap...

If I was Hunting a Big Bear.... I would have a 338 Lapua, 26" barrel 3.5-10 in a tactical setup, without question if possible an HS detatchable Mag... 2 spares...I'd be off 200 yards plus with a steady rest and make the first shots count... pop the empty mag and insert full and evaluate the situation with one more mag. on standy by...

I've spent a good deal of time around the big bears... leave no stone unturned... you don't get very many second chances...

good luck

[ 04-26-2004: Message edited by: Ric Horst ]

 

[Gowge]

Johnny!

Did you see the specs on the 577 he was referring to? 650gr @ 1950fps... That was the NITRO EXPRESS load. The 450 of his day wasn't nearly as powerful and two loadings were commonly used - both Nitro and black powder.

Samuel Baker was speaking from experience in the context of his day - over a hundred years ago. EVERYONE knows bullets are superior today, but not THAT much better! There's a lotta' sissy types that think they can touch off a little Mach-5 smallbore at huge ranges and still take enormous game animals, and it's just NOT TRUE. The guys he described being killed were hunting dangerous game animals at close range. Cape Buff will run off and turn back to watch their backtrail. When an animal is charging, it's a whole 'nother ballgame and that's what Baker was trying to explain. You need a STOPPING GUN under those circumstances, and it takes enormous power to stop over a ton of buffalo, rhino or elephant or other dangerous game animal.

I strongly urge you to download his book "Wild Animals and Their Ways" and read the whole thing. It's quick reading and very entertaining. I bet you'll learn a thing or two as the rest of us have...

Did you know shooting animals in the KIDNEYS was once considered a very sure method of dropping an animal in its tracks? It can create more shock and disability than a heart shot sometimes.

BTW, these catalog pages are from the 1910-1912 H&H Catalog - a full 20 years after Baker wrote the lines above, at a time when rifles & cartridges were changing very rapidly... Notice the ballistics of the 450 Express below.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[Gowge]

 

[Gowge]

OK - just one more try posting this pic. Don't understand why it didn't show up before...

 

[Brent]

When it comes to raw stopping power, I vote 416 and larger, bigger works better.

Bison compared to Cape Buffalo - No comparison from what I've heard. Hide is thicker on a Cape, they're meaner and so on. Up here, 338 is the minimum size caliber for Bison.

Just my opinion and nothing more, but 416 and larger are stopping calibers. My Brother even said yesterday he don't have much faith in 375 and 338's on Grizz anymore, why he built his M70 475 Capstick.

Him and Mike saw one up on the base of the mountain the day before yesterday just beore dark, so we went up and glassed for him all day yesterday. Saw his tracks down on the river bar below the mountain, about a 7 to a 7-1/2 footer, or that could just be another one. We never saw him yesterday, and it's nothing but a huge dust storm out there today.

I took my 416 WBY, so my Brother took his 300 WSM, Mike had his 300 WM. Hope we see him this week, there's another guy that is hunting him pretty hard and saw him the same day too. Last they say him he dug a hole in a snow slide and disappeared into it.

Here's one my brother told me about yesterday - A guide he knows was telling him about a Bear they took on Kodiak. The Bear walked up through a row of alder and headed for a clearing on the other side. As they went through after him the Bear had stopped and layed down waiting for them in the alder. They made it about 30' into the alder when the Bear jumped up facing them at about 15'. The client was to the side and just behind him when he raised and shot the Bear in the head with his 378 WBY killing him dead. Bear measured 9'3" squared. It had the back of one side of his head blown out and part of his shoulder shattered as the bullet passed through it too. The guide was amazed the client hit him so fast, before he could even get his gun up the Bear was flattened in front of them, thankfully! Yeah, he was using an X bullet too.

 

[Guest]

Brent, I wasn't saying that smaller calibers are ok. Just saying that you don't need a 570 with a 650gr bullet.

Also, Dakor will be shooting from 200 yards. (we hope!)

I'd use my 458 Lott. Not that I have a 458 lott but I need an excuse to build one.

I actually like what ric (formerly known as Wyo Wisper)said he'd use, the 338 Lapua.....I got one of those.

 

[Brent]

John,

Wasn't directed at what you had said. I'm not even interested in anything larger than .50 cal, although 577 would get the job done I'm sure.

I just think once you add stopping power to good killing power you have a cartridge with total ability on big Bear and such, something you may need.

Last winter, Tim, the guy that's hunting the Grizz up river right now, the one we are after too, he shot one last winter while walking back home after their rig broke down up there. It was just about dark and the Grizz came onto the trail 50' in front of them and charged. Tim shot with his 7 mag and the Bear turned into the brush. He turned around to see Joey had dropped his rifle and flew up a tree behind him! They turned it in to F&G but F&G never could find the Bear either. Later this winter Tim found the carcass near his trap line about 1/2 mile off. There was only a spot of blood in a couple places off into the bush, said they simply could not track him with what little it left behind.

Believe it or not, if you've ever hunted Moose, they can really soak up a hit and just run too, they are tough critters sometimes.

 

[Guest]

Brent, what do you think of a .458 Lott build on a pre-64 winchester action. a 22" Douglas barrel with and a McMillian Stock. Jewell Trigger Too.

 

[Brent]

All I'd ever need, plus some, that's what I think.

You might even be able to pass that of as a shotgun in your area, just carry some 20ga slugs with you and show them the hole in the bore!

 

[Guest]

Thats my next project....just a matter of when!

 

[Brent]

Love to have one myself, but this 416 will do me for a while. You know Ruger makes their Magnum rifle in 458 Lott now, not just on the #1. My Ruger is pretty **** nice for the money. It has an integral quater rib($$$$), 3 blade express sights, barrel band swivel and front sight, integral dovetail base, positive feed, 3 position safety, 3+1 capacity in the 416 WBY (I think Weatherby is only 2+1), nice finish, nice wood, crossbolted and feed smooth. It's nice to shoot too, although the butt pad is too thin and LOP was too short for me.

I see they keep going up in price every year though. Mine was about $1200 in 2000, I think they're over $1450 now though. Still, worth every penny.

 

[Guest]

Brent, I dont really need the thing. If I buy it the thrill ends too fast. If I build it I can entertain myself more.