Neck tension

[Mike Matteson]

Interesting on what's being said about neck tension. I haven't mess with it. I am looking at it very hard. Thinking about what tension I am going to use. Up until now I just used the sizing die and expander ball to set tension. The loads I use are in the 1/2 area and under @ 100yds. It never came to mind in setting tension. That what happen when reloading by yourself. You have only you to talk too. Probable get some crappy answers too.
I just shifted last year to bushing dies to control the tension.

 

[Flea21]

Interesting on what's being said about neck tension. I haven't mess with it. I am looking at it very hard. Thinking about what tension I am going to use. Up until now I just used the sizing die and expander ball to set tension. The loads I use are in the 1/2 area and under @ 100yds. It never came to mind in setting tension. That what happen when reloading by yourself. You have only you to talk too. Probable get some crappy answers too.
I just shifted last year to bushing dies to control the tension.

That's awesome lol

Stick with what works, there's no wrong answers here.

I noticed a difference when doing various brass prep steps and the down the rabbit hole I went…

 

[Flatbow]

Since brass neck thickness can have inconsistencies it has never made since to me to use bushing dies WITHOUT neck turning first.
(Something I really don't want to add to my brass prep.) That is why I went with mandrels and that was mostly to get rid of the expander ball to hopefully reduce runout.
Any thoughts on this?

 

[Flea21]

Since brass neck thickness can have inconsistencies it has never made since to me to use bushing dies WITHOUT neck turning first.
(Something I really don't want to add to my brass prep.) That is why I went with mandrels and that was mostly to get rid of the expander ball to hopefully reduce runout.
Any thoughts on this?

Expander mandrels are great, they reduce runout and are waaay better on the brass. I know you don't want to neck them but I will say it's a one time thing in the life of the brass and does show results downrange. When I did it for the first time, I was VERY impressed with the results and now I do it to everything I load for.

I'm having a 223 built to Pd hunting and target shooting and I ordered 1000pcs of Starline for it. It was tedious work but I did all of it. This is just part of the process, for me at least, it doesn't have to be yours but if your curious, there's no harm in trying for yourself considering you have everything else already.

 

[cajun]

Since brass neck thickness can have inconsistencies it has never made since to me to use bushing dies WITHOUT neck turning first.
(Something I really don't want to add to my brass prep.) That is why I went with mandrels and that was mostly to get rid of the expander ball to hopefully reduce runout.
Any thoughts on this?

Your basically correct. However some brass like Lapua is so good out the box you probably could. I think this is why guys started using mandrels after the bushing. To push any inconsistency to the outside. If you are using a mandrel instead of expander what sizing die are you using?

 

[VinceMule]

My 6XC bushing die, that Tubbs sells, puts 5 thou neck tension. It shoots excellent. I generally order bushings to put 2 to 3 thou of tension. Neck tension would be the last thing I'd test, to get that last bit of accuracy. Imo, annealing every firing to ensure consistent neck tension is a must. Plus with proper "tight" headspacing and reasonably hot loads your brass will last 12+ firings, easily, even belted mags. Brass longevity is better with tighter tolerances. So I try to keep neck tension and shoulder bump to a minimum, ~2 thou for both.

Tubb as you know has a HUGE neck on his 6 XC design, so you size it down with a .005 bushing and there is spring back.

I made 6 XC cases from Lapua 308 Palma cases. On one barrel, I have 30 cases formed, and I have over 300 firings on those 30 cases using H4350 with 105-108g bullets. 31" barrel is producing 3150 fps shooting very tiny bug holes with the RAS tuner/Brake. I do anneal and full length size every firing with a Whidden bushing FL sizing die.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Since brass neck thickness can have inconsistencies it has never made since to me to use bushing dies WITHOUT neck turning first.
(Something I really don't want to add to my brass prep.) That is why I went with mandrels and that was mostly to get rid of the expander ball to hopefully reduce runout.
Any thoughts on this

That should work. I cut all my necks to start with. I am going to run some test sometime in just using a bushing and using a mandrel to set tension.
What I started to look at is there any movement in my bullets in the Mag after firing the rifle. I do shoot high velocity ammo that I load for. I had note a long time ago that the tips were being dented. Didn't seem to may any difference, but the neck tension was from a stock dies, and no bushing.
I wasn't smart enough to check the difference in ID after cutting the necks, and before cutting the necks. I am going to repeat this type of sizing just to see what I was coming up with. My grouping did tighten up in cutting the necks. Just how much I don't remember nor did I write it down. O'well!

 

[Svashtar]

Since brass neck thickness can have inconsistencies it has never made since to me to use bushing dies WITHOUT neck turning first.
(Something I really don't want to add to my brass prep.) That is why I went with mandrels and that was mostly to get rid of the expander ball to hopefully reduce runout.
Any thoughts on this?

Ok, I use mandrels as well with the die expander ball removed, but by design most mandrels size the ID of the neck to .001 or .002" neck tension. So (not being familiar with bushings), the only way you could get .003 or .004" neck tension, is by using a mandrel to clean up the neck ID as far as removing any dings and such, THEN using a bushing after during FL sizing, right? Which is opposite of what most people using a mandrel do.

In other words, if you stick with .001 or .002" neck tension as set with a mandrel, then the only reason to use a bushing first when FL sizing is to minimize the reduction of the neck that a standard FL sizing die gives you, correct?

Sorry to go down the rabbit hole, but bottom line using standard mandrels (not the full expensive set 21st Century sells for each caliber) there doesn't seem any way to set greater than .002" neck tension, IF you mandrel after FL sizing. Believe me, I've been asking variants of this question for two years on YouTube, and it's been a challenge to get a clear response. So, since I anneal I haven't even bothered with neck turning or bushings as you seem to say, only FL sizing with no expander ball to bump the shoulder back .002" then a .001" or .002" mandrel. Thanks! I'll get enough info to confirm all this eventually…!

 

[TontoDean]

Mandrels come in different sizes same as bushings. You can tailor it precisely for your brass or turn brass so it has the same neck thickness. The only issue is you still have brass metal make up but that's whole different convo. For simple conversation you can get a bushing, a mandrel, and pin gauges to get very precise inside neck diameter. Most don't pin, they just take measurements with high end calipers and call it good.

Thanks for the response Brent..

I'm still unsure how to use the mandrel..
Looks like I need to take the expander ball out of my sizing die, then choose a neck bushing .003 less than the loaded round when sizing the case, and then use an expanding mandrel .002 less than the loaded round.

I have expanding mandrels from Sinclair that are supposed to be .001 under bullet diameter.. Not necessarily true, so what mandrels are you using & will they work in the Sinclair die body??

Sinclair neck turning mandrels are .002 less than bullet diameter…Are these what I need to be using instead of the expander mandrels??

Any explanation of the proper procedure that should be used would be greatly appreciated…

Also, what annealer mfg do you recommend?? Can't afford the AMP..

 

[Svashtar]

Thanks for the response Brent..

I'm still unsure how to use the mandrel..
Looks like I need to take the expander ball out of my sizing die, then choose a neck bushing .003 less than the loaded round when sizing the case, and then use an expanding mandrel .002 less than the loaded round.

I have expanding mandrels from Sinclair that are supposed to be .001 under bullet diameter.. Not necessarily true, so what mandrels are you using & will they work in the Sinclair die body??

Sinclair neck turning mandrels are .002 less than bullet diameter…Are these what I need to be using instead of the expander mandrels??

Any explanation of the proper procedure that should be used would be greatly appreciated…

Also, what annealer mfg do you recommend?? Can't afford the AMP..

Most mandrels are the standard .001" under or "turning mandrels" that are .002" under. As far as I can tell you only need the bushing to minimize the working of the neck. If you use a turning mandrel whether you use a bushing or not seems to be irrelevant, because when all is said and done your ID of the neck will be .002" under bullet diameter. The 21st Century mandrels and Sinclair ones should be interchangeable in each die body as a general rule. I waited for the Sinclair but they were out of stock at the time so got the 21st Century die body with window and their coated black turning mandrels initially.

I'd love to get an induction annealer, but that's $2k after all is said and done, so after looking at EP, the double torch Bench Source, the Annealeze, and the Ugly Annealer, I went with the Ugly. $309 shipped with torch, and I'm pretty impressed with it. Just my .02 cents. Like you would love to get more input from Brent.

 

[Flatbow]

The mandrels I have are expanding mandrels so would be .001 under.
Something Svashtar just reminded me of is another good reason to use bushings is to not over work the brass anymore than needed.
I will be working up loads for my Brothers new 6.5x300 Weatherby mag.
I am wondering if .001 is enough to keep the bullets in the mag in place with the recoil it will have.
With some of what I am hearing about using a slight crimp I think I will experiment with that.

 

[cajun]

This thread popped up in the similar threads under this topic. Curious that in the video the full length sized with the expander removed and then using a mandrel was the most accurate consistent.

Neck tension

There are many ways to set neck tension Hear is a good Video that may be of interest to some. Crimping is another way if you occasionally use factory ammo. J E CUSTOM

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[BrentM]

Did a little test today. Set the neck to 289 and 291. I shot 4 groups of 3 and unfortunately my garmin had issues and didn't record it all.

however this is 3 of the 4. The first 2 are same charge but different tension. 58.5 grains. Next 2 were supposed to be 58 grains and 291 and 289. Sd was same as the others, it was not good. It's strange how wild the sd and es are in comparison.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Did a little test today. Set the neck to 289 and 291. I shot 4 groups of 3 and unfortunately my garmin had issues and didn't record it all.

however this is 3 of the 4. The first 2 are same charge but different tension. 58.5 grains. Next 2 were supposed to be 58 grains and 291 and 289. Sd was same as the others, it was not good. It's strange how wild the sd and es are in comparison.

Your .5 gr less did almost the same in velocity with 3.7 D. Interesting velocity was almost the same with .5 gr less.
1. Now how did they group. 2. Temp change at start and at finish. 3. What type of powder were you using? Any special work on the cases. Like volume weight brass, case neck cut to a thick and each being the same?
Some powders change over a 1.5fps per degree in temp changes. Some are very stable.
In someways luck you. I am in Mexico-North and will be for a month or so yet. All my reloading equipment is in storage presently. My reloading shack isn't quite finish yet. I got another couple of days to finish it out. Get my reloading gear out of storage and set up.
To **** many irons in the fire. I am retire, and still don't have a lot of free time.