Neck Sizing Vs. Full Length Sizing and Neck Tension

Ok, I don't want to start a food fight or anything, but I am curious what everyone on this forum has to say about this subject. I've seen the Erik Cortina video where he says neck sizing is just passe and so much old lore, and to just full length size for consistency. I've seen some other videos on youtube which sort of cite him and say they agree. However, in my own experience, I haven't so much run the tests to match up one method against another, its just that I learned the hard way you CANNOT full length size belted magnum cartridges past 2-3 times without head case failures. At least I could not. I had 6-7 head case failures on my .300 win mag. which of course is a belted magnum. I even had one lower half stay in the chamber so tight, I had to fill it with earplugs, then fill with an epoxy, and then ram it out from the barrell end.......not fun. So, now I neck size all my new Peterson Brass and have had no more issues or failures and I'm up to 5 times on that brass. Full length sizing at least with my RCBS dies just overworked the brass shoving it back down on the belt, and then the firing would stretch it back out until it failed above the belt in case head separation due to metal fatigue. No one ever told me not to Full length size belted cartridges, no book, no article, nobody told me. I had to learn the hard way.

But, I do full length size my .338 Lapua Magnum brass every 2-4 firings now, and neck size it the rest of the time, just to try to get a little more life out of it. I think just anecdotally I see better group sizes on it when I neck size it. I haven't run any real tests yet. Is there any real scientifically consistent and valid data run by anyone you can point me to who has done exhaustive testing on this subject as to group size vs. method?

Next, I've seen some videos by sdkweber and bolt action reloading on youtube where they ran some tests that seemed to indicate that either 2 thousands or 3 thousands neck tension is optimum for shooting small groups. Is there an accepted standard in the community and if so what is it, and can you again point me to any definitive studies that are scientific, exhaustive, and consistently run that says what the answer is?
One guy says 2 thousands works best, and another seemed to end up with a relationship what shows 1 thousands is worst, 2 thousands is better and 3 thousands is best in a curvelinear line that shows diminished gains at the 3 thousands mark, ie not much to be gained if any past that.
Does anyone have a magic wand or a crystal ball?

I'm just digging in and trying to get it right!
I only FL resize all my 300 Win Mag brass (I use Peterson and Hornady cases, each for a different rifle), and I see no sign of fatigue on my 300 Win Mag cases after many reloads. In other words, I have no problems at all - I only move the shoulder 0.002 in from the fired size.
I anneal the cases every single cycle (salt bath annealing), and I also check for case's collet area bulging, which only seems to appear at Hornady brass. I use the Larry Willis Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die to ensure the lower (and thicker) part of the case is kept in check, and it works like a dream if you follow the easy instructions (https://larrywillis.com/).
Both rifles are consistently under .5 MOA (most of the time under 0.3MOA) at 100m, I use EC tuners on both. I use Hornady ELDX 212gr, Berger VLDH 210gr, and also Berger 245 EOL bullets, H1000 powder, scientific scale, F215M primers, IBI barrels with 1:9 twist rate, MDT chassis.
That Larry Willis die was one of the best investments for me for handloading (in the case of the belted cases), along with the FX powder trickler, the Henderson Precision case trimmer, SAC comparators, 21st Century expanding mandrels, Redding 7 turret press, Forster dies, and the salt bath annealer.
 
So what kind of brass are you using that's giving 15 + reloads on Belted mag Full Length Resizing? Are these full powder charges, Max, Min. I tend to always run on the warmer side of things and never seen 15, 8 is more likely for the 300 Full Length Sized
7mag, Norma brass, 68.8 grs of H1000, cci 250 with a 180 vld-h at 2917 fps from a 26" barrel. Not real hot, not minimum either. bumping shoulders ~2-4 thou. I can slightly feel case when closing bolt. That last inch of closure on some more then others. I just read that can cause a harmonic issue, but it shoots .44 consistently. It's a OMR CF remage barrel, Headspace I set tight, I believe. I ran barrel down on go gauge tight, checked with 5 peices of same lot brass which chambered fine, rechecked with go and no go and went with it. I got 250 pc of same lot brass for this rifles. Using a .420 comparator virgin brass is 2.101". Loaded rounds are 2.114",+ - 1 thou. Lee manual says .420 datum line should be 2.116". So I guess it's chambered pretty well. Am very happy with the barrel and would buy another from OMR.
I stated 15+, but I actually retired the brass at 15 firings. But those cases were fine. A couple primer pockets were getting not as snug as others so I figured, retire that "lot". But I couldn't see or feel any indication of head separation.
 
Well, I must say bumping the shoulder back a little to make the belt seat better so there is not excess head space left over after the cartridge elongates after firing makes some sense to me. I am sure willing to try that. It's just a step further than I have gotten in my reloading. Are there specific dies anyone recommends that are easy to set up for FL sizing with a shoulder bump that works well?
I'm not sure that my standard RCBS dies will set up to do a shoulder bump unless its just a matter of experimenting with the distance the cartridge gets pushed up into them? Let me know what you recommend to do this. I plan to try it. I can also see that annealing with this working the shoulder is gonna be more important. Thanks for your help.
One small fine point to remember is you need to punch out the spent primers of the cases you are using to set up your die for shoulder bumping. This will eliminate a slightly protruding primer from fouling up the measurements.
 
Ok, let's play a game: Is a Forster bump die an FL die - Yes or No?
I don't like to play games, but here is an answer, Forster makes these types of sizing dies:
1. Full Length Sizing Die (with EZ Out expander ball)
2. Bushing Full Length Sizing Die
3. Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die

The last one is actually a neck sizing die, not a full length sizing die:
"A one-step neck sizing reduction/shoulder bump operation keeps your case necks straighter."
 
Wasn't much science in that video, lol. Who would go to a shoot and not have pre tested their ammo for function in the rifle when Neck Sizing? That's pretty standard Ops. But thanks for the share, appreciate it.
 
It's funny how (primarily because of Cortina and his theatrics) that this debate get's reduced to TWO issues when THREE are in play.

Neck Die - Neck only, not shoulders or body
Bump Die - Neck and shoulders, not body
FL Die - Neck, shoulders, and body

You have to get all three to work in concert together, yet the argument gets reduced to "neck sizing is stupid" when the shoulders are the part everyone is trying to "bump" 🤣 Even Cortina said:

I told her she needed to think about Full-length sizing with 0.002″ shoulder bump, or Controlled Full-length Sizing
So under the logic of the oft-quoted Cortina, you still have to LET THE CASE FULLY GROW before bumping the shoulders.

Yet the FL adherents spouting off how stupid neck sizing is miss out on the fact that moving shoulders BEFORE the case grows to the chamber is over-working the brass. If you correctly set up an FL die guess what - you're NECK SIZING ONLY until the brass grows.

Moving shoulders on once-fired brass is just as silly as neck sizing inside the logic of the Erik Cortina links that get reposted constantly. 😬 All y'all link posters are misunderstanding of the the Manic Maniac of FL Sizing is telling you.
 
It's funny how (primarily because of Cortina and his theatrics) that this debate get's reduced to TWO issues when THREE are in play.

Neck Die - Neck only, not shoulders or body
Bump Die - Neck and shoulders, not body
FL Die - Neck, shoulders, and body

You have to get all three to work in concert together, yet the argument gets reduced to "neck sizing is stupid" when the shoulders are the part everyone is trying to "bump" 🤣 Even Cortina said:


So under the logic of the oft-quoted Cortina, you still have to LET THE CASE FULLY GROW before bumping the shoulders.

Yet the FL adherents spouting off how stupid neck sizing is miss out on the fact that moving shoulders BEFORE the case grows to the chamber is over-working the brass. If you correctly set up an FL die guess what - you're NECK SIZING ONLY until the brass grows.

Moving shoulders on once-fired brass is just as silly as neck sizing inside the logic of the Erik Cortina links that get reposted constantly. 😬 All y'all link posters are misunderstanding of the the Manic Maniac of FL Sizing is telling you.
OK, here is my take from my own observations and using my own thinking (that's why good God gave us a brain), plus listening to what others are saying (especially those who most likely know what they're talking about!):
Allowing the case to grow until it matches the chamber has to do with the complete fire forming. Apart from the advantages (no need to insist on those), there are two problems with that:
1. The length of the case may increase too much - solved by trimming/chamfering/deburring to whatever dimension one wants within acceptable limits, as long as one sticks to that dimension
2. There is virtually no clearance between the chamber and the case (its neck, shoulder and body, all the way to the case head)
By only neck sizing and just bumping the shoulder back (e.g. 0.002" or whatever one desires) every single time, after a couple firings the body of the case really matches the walls of the chamber (although the neck and shoulders are modified), runing the risk of problematic chambering of the cartridge next time.
Full length sizing, even when used sparingly every time (and that is all it takes usually), will eventually touch also the body of the case, not just the neck and shoulder, keeping also the body in good dimensions which means providing a minimal clearance between case and chamber all around. That is what virtually eliminates the pains of stuck cases down the road.
I noticed that visually myself, there are very faint but visible longitudinal marks on the body of the case after FL sizing, they confirm the die eventually touches/works that part too.
 
I only FL resize all my 300 Win Mag brass (I use Peterson and Hornady cases, each for a different rifle), and I see no sign of fatigue on my 300 Win Mag cases after many reloads. In other words, I have no problems at all - I only move the shoulder 0.002 in from the fired size.
I anneal the cases every single cycle (salt bath annealing), and I also check for case's collet area bulging, which only seems to appear at Hornady brass. I use the Larry Willis Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die to ensure the lower (and thicker) part of the case is kept in check, and it works like a dream if you follow the easy instructions (https://larrywillis.com/).
Both rifles are consistently under .5 MOA (most of the time under 0.3MOA) at 100m, I use EC tuners on both. I use Hornady ELDX 212gr, Berger VLDH 210gr, and also Berger 245 EOL bullets, H1000 powder, scientific scale, F215M primers, IBI barrels with 1:9 twist rate, MDT chassis.
That Larry Willis die was one of the best investments for me for handloading (in the case of the belted cases), along with the FX powder trickler, the Henderson Precision case trimmer, SAC comparators, 21st Century expanding mandrels, Redding 7 turret press, Forster dies, and the salt bath annealer.
I have a 308NM rifle. I started with it in about 2001.
That rifle is cartridge is the forrunner of the 300WM chamber.
I used Winchester, Rem, PMC, and Normal brass. I would size them to conform to the 308NM chamber. At that time I was FL sizing the case. I would lose them in 3 firing to separation at the base or belt. I came up with using a 300WM NS die. It would only size about 2/3's of the neck. That one step chanbed the life of the case from 3 to 10 to 12 firing. I only lose the case do to the primer pocket wouldn't hold the primer any longer.
I don't recall if I had to FL size the case after that, before the primer pocket enlargen to where I couldn't use the case any longe. I did anneal the cases once while using the cases. I did lose some case to neck splits if I didn't anneal the cases.
I was loading to the max with powders in those cases. I had flatten primers, but not creatoring. I would work up to the creatoring of primers and back off.
i quite using double base powders at that time. With IMR powders I blew a primer out of the case one time. I had worked up a load in the winter in California. Temp was about 50drs. Had an excellence load, and grouping under 1/2 @ 100yds. Went back to that rifle in the late June or early July. About 100+dr outside in the sun and possible a little hotter. That when I ran into problems with the powder load. That IMR powder is temp sensitive. I changed to H powders (H4350) and never looked back again. I have used that powder in weather from over 100+ to -20 degrees. It isn't effect hardly at all.
Bottom line is you have to know how your rifle handle your cases, and weather you hunt in. I run all my case that I am going or might use thur the rifle, before I am going hunting just to make sure they fit and cycle in and out of my action.
There is and isn't a lot of set up to reload. It's all down to what you want or trying to achieve with your rifle and grouping that you are happy with.
There a lot to be learn here @ Long Range Hunting. So keep reading and writting asking questions. We will load you up with all types of ways to reload.
The other is you need to figure out where you want to go to in what grouping and distance you are going to shoot too. Me I have held may range to 500yds mostly for big game.
Back in the times, they didn't have range finders, and scopes that you can adjust it to extend your range or windage. I do most of my shooting using a 2x8 duplex Leupold scope out to 500yds.
There a hold list of things you can do, and a lot of it is trying different things or combination of cases, primers, and powders, bullets. That only the start of it.
The hardest thing today is getting the componments to reload with.
If you can get a fair amount to cases to start with. All from the same lot. Peterson, Lapua, and there a couple of others out there that are good or better than the run of the mill cases. All cases need some prep work to start with. You go from there to how or what you want out of your cases. sizing them is or can be a big factor in your set up. Bryan Litz book it a very good one to read.
I would start info sheet and type down information that may work for you, or you want to steady more about. Compare to others and there info.
This got to be longer than I wanted to, but I hope this will help.
THEY CALL IT THE "RABBIT HOLE".
 

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