My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

[mercerbear]

It was this thread, and it wasn't that he was holding on hair at 500 yards and it not hitting right where desired. He was saying his hold at 500 yards with his load is 1.1 mils, abd even provided his ballistics chart, and that 1.1 mils is 3.7" at 500 yards. It's not. It is at 100 yards, but it's 20.3" at 500 yards. That was all that was being corrected. If his load is defying math and physics, I'd love to see that proven. Not calling him a liar at all, but perhaps mistaken. Something is not right at least. We could be the ones mistaken too, I suppose. I can admit when I'm wrong.

My mistake, I am getting this thread confused with another one.

I understand the ballistics and math involved in this discussion and am also baffled. I don't believe that anyone is being dishonest, but there is a clear disconnect in the way something is being explained or possible at what distance a rifle is zeroed.

If copper monos traveling at 4,000+ fps are doing something interesting on the BC side, I'd would love to understand that better.

 

[Petey308]

My mistake, I am getting this thread confused with another one.

I understand the ballistics and math involved in this discussion and am also baffled. I don't believe that anyone is being dishonest, but there is a clear disconnect in the way something is being explained or possible at what distance a rifle is zeroed.

If copper monos traveling at 4,000+ fps are doing something interesting on the BC side, I'd would love to understand that better.

I could ask Bryan Litz And I don't think it was a matter of dishonesty at all.

 

[Zorack]

Wow, 710 yards with a 150ttsx is a poke.

Color me impressed.

Yes 710, first shot was right over his back, he just stood there and looked around to happened. Adjusted hit the shoulder and came out below the ribs.

 

[mercerbear]

I could ask Bryan Litz And I don't think it was a matter of dishonesty at all.

Nope, I think it's all a matter of typing vs talking. Sometimes it's difficult to make your point on a keyboard.

Litz's work delving into twist rates and stability factor impacting BC has been interesting. I am going to load up some really light monos in my .264 Win Mag and see if I can get a laser beam going, just for giggles. It's a 27" barrel with 7.5" twist.

 

[Petey308]

Nope, I think it's all a matter of typing vs talking. Sometimes it's difficult to make your point on a keyboard.

Litz's work delving into twist rates and stability factor impacting BC has been interesting. I am going to load up some really light monos in my .264 Win Mag and see if I can get a laser beam going, just for giggles. It's a 27" barrel with 7.5" twist.

Good luck

 

[nealm66]

I think the terrific speeds mess with the BC's. Running 150 BD-2's from a 7 Allen Mag at around 3,700 fps required changing the G7 (yes, G7) BC to 1.00 out to 400 yds to get it to hold out with real drops. Only shot it to 400 so far with this load, so the rest is just estimated. Crazy stuff. Or what did we do wrong?

Ya, I'm at 3740 and it was at 500 meters actually. It was right after I finished developing a load and was just plinking at some 6" gongs and missed so I shot a bigger white painted gong and noticed I was about 6" high which I was just using a holdover cus it's a cheap scope I wouldn't trust the dial. But it would really be super fricking awesome if they would develop an app specifically for these weird bullets to save a bunch of this head scratching. I'm a lazy shooter lol ! I'm thinking butterbean was brain farting but it wouldn't surprise me to smack a 15" gong on the low edge just holding at the top with his combination especially if he's shooting at any angle. But time will unfold the mystery with these things one way or another. One things becoming more clear is they kill as advertised and the folks building them are really good people trying to build a good business.

 

[Petey308]

Ya, I'm at 3740 and it was at 500 meters actually. It was right after I finished developing a load and was just plinking at some 6" gongs and missed so I shot a bigger white painted gong and noticed I was about 6" high which I was just using a holdover cus it's a cheap scope I wouldn't trust the dial. But it would really be super fricking awesome if they would develop an app specifically for these weird bullets to save a bunch of this head scratching. I'm a lazy shooter lol ! I'm thinking butterbean was brain farting but it wouldn't surprise me to smack a 15" gong on the low edge just holding at the top with his combination especially if he's shooting at any angle. But time will unfold the mystery with these things one way or another. One things becoming more clear is they kill as advertised and the folks building them are really good people trying to build a good business.

I will say, for best results, truing BC and MV needs to be done further out to separate yourself from the other variables that will influence results. Inside 500, or even 600 yards, but especially 400 yards, leaves you open for other errors that can or will influence the results. Being off on things like your sight height or zero can be a big factor in the results. A high velocity and high SG, even above 3, won't boost BC like some may think. It just won't. The bullet can't get any smaller in the air by speed and spin alone. I true BC on most of my loads at 800 or 1000 yards. Some are further than that. Some have to be closer though since they hit transonic well before 800 yards. Verifying zero is best done at longer ranges too and if your impact doesn't reflect your zero, you should ensure that's true first before adjusting BC or MV in your ballistic calculator or dope card. Ballistics solvers are only as accurate as the data input into them.

With the correct data to input, calculators like Applied Ballistics, Hornady 4Dof, Strelok Pro, etc are actually very good. I'm not sure a special app would necessarily change anything, but hey, maybe it would at least be handy for someone just shooting those specific bullets

 

[jessej]

A little off original, but this is a active thread with a lot of hammer info. So here's my range info from this evnin.
Went to confirm my load. Great conditions, practically 0 wind, 65 degrees, 38 percent humidity. 30 cal 151 absolutes at 3800 with a 20' spread. 300 yard zero.
Confirmed zero with separate groups using virgin brass and fired brass.
Set up big target at 500 and y'all target at 800.
500 yard resulted in 19" drop. Virgin brass group measured 2" horizontal with 1/4" vertical spread.
Fired brass was a little odd with 2 rounds touching and 1 four inches out.

Tall target resulted in 92-94" of drop with a 8" horizontal, 2" vertical spread. This is a light weight Remington rifle. Skinny fluted 26" barrel, custom shop rifle. No break. Punishing to shoot. I feel the load is good. The horizontal groups are shooter error I believe. No scope level. Vx6 3-18.
I'll take constructive criticism from some of the gurus on here.

Had to check notes and do a quick edit on drop.

I'm using a lab radar. I use applied ballistics app. The drop at 500 is 2" more than app shows. The drop at 800 is 2-4" more than app shows. Is BC a little off or is radar reading a little off?

 

[nealm66]

I will say, for best results, truing BC and MV needs to be done further out to separate yourself from the other variables that will influence results. Inside 500, or even 600 yards, but especially 400 yards, leaves you open for other errors that can or will influence the results. Being off on things like your sight height or zero can be a big factor in the results. A high velocity and high SG, even above 3, won't boost BC like some may think. It just won't. The bullet can't get any smaller in the air by speed and spin alone. I true BC on most of my loads at 800 or 1000 yards. Some are further than that. Some have to be closer though since they hit transonic well before 800 yards. Verifying zero is best done at longer ranges too and if your impact doesn't reflect your zero, you should ensure that's true first before adjusting BC or MV in your ballistic calculator or dope card. Ballistics solvers are only as accurate as the data input into them.

With the correct data to input, calculators like Applied Ballistics, Hornady 4Dof, Strelok Pro, etc are actually very good. I'm not sure a special app would necessarily change anything, but hey, maybe it would at least be handy for someone just shooting those specific bullets

I have to drive a long ways to shoot long range so I try to get everything clicking correctly and shooting inside a clay pigeon before I head over to the east side of Washington. It's worked for me so far but there's something weird with the hammers even to 500 meters but it could be just my small sample size so maybe they are fine and I just had weird results. I'm definitely not going to loose any sleep over it and just sharing my experience and it might be a good idea to confirm I'm wrong before placing to much trust in the numbers on paper

 

[nealm66]

A little off original, but this is a active thread with a lot of hammer info. So here's my range info from this evnin.
Went to confirm my load. Great conditions, practically 0 wind, 65 degrees, 38 percent humidity. 30 cal 151 absolutes at 3800 with a 20' spread. 300 yard zero.
Confirmed zero with separate groups using virgin brass and fired brass.
Set up big target at 500 and y'all target at 800.
500 yard resulted in 19" drop. Virgin brass group measured 2" horizontal with 1/4" vertical spread.
Fired brass was a little odd with 2 rounds touching and 1 four inches out.

Tall target resulted in 92-94" of drop with a 8" horizontal, 2" vertical spread. This is a light weight Remington rifle. Skinny fluted 26" barrel, custom shop rifle. No break. Punishing to shoot. I feel the load is good. The horizontal groups are shooter error I believe. No scope level. Vx6 3-18.
I'll take constructive criticism from some of the gurus on here.

Had to check notes and do a quick edit on drop.

I'm using a lab radar. I use applied ballistics app. The drop at 500 is 2" more than app shows. The drop at 800 is 2-4" more than app shows. Is BC a little off or is radar reading a little off?

2" at 5-800 with hard recoil makes it difficult to tell. Probably should start a different thread for more input

 

[MW204]

I used to use the 178gr AMAX in my 308 a lot for deer. It worked very well. I ended up trying the 208gr ELDM in it to boost my range but was having issues getting groups as small as I prefer between magazine restrictions and jump. So I tried the new (at the time) 195gr TMK and had a load shooting 1/2" groups in less than 25 shots. It's been an absolutely amazing bullet too. Slightly thicker jackets than an ELDM but a slightly wider tip. It's turned out to be an excellent balance there for terminal performance.

I'm a novice to most of this stuff, but I thought the TMK was a match bullet for competition. Have you ever recovered a bullet to see how much it expanded? My reason for asking is when I was even more of a novice I used a 7mm 150gr Sierra BTHP-MK because I had great groups with it. I shot a lot of deer with it too and I always had a pass-through until that one day when I shot a buck, the bullet went into and out of the buck between the ribs and I did not have a blood trail to follow. Luckily for me, it had just rained and I was able to follow the tracks it left. Close to the deer, maybe 20Y from it I finally found 3 drops of blood. I then figured out all of the other deer I had shot with that bullet hit a rib going out providing a blood trail, but a lot of those deer ran 100-200 yds so I stopped using them switched to the B-Tip bullet of the time.
This year I purchased a box of Hammers for a new 30 cal Mauser build (it had been about 5-8 years since I built one) and I could not get it to stabilize for crap no matter what I fed it, nor what primer I used, nor doing the ladder test. I finally figured out what was wrong but I was down to 6 Hammers with hunting season coming up quick and another rifle or two to fix before the season so I use some Sierra 165gr BTHP GK that shot excellent. I hope it does its job but I have heard that it blows up, pencils through, all the way to being an excellent bullet on game.

 

[FEENIX]

I'm a novice to most of this stuff, but I thought the TMK was a match bullet for competition. Have you ever recovered a bullet to see how much it expanded? My reason for asking is when I was even more of a novice I used a 7mm 150gr Sierra BTHP-MK because I had great groups with it. I shot a lot of deer with it too and I always had a pass-through until that one day when I shot a buck, the bullet went into and out of the buck between the ribs and I did not have a blood trail to follow. Luckily for me, it had just rained and I was able to follow the tracks it left. Close to the deer, maybe 20Y from it I finally found 3 drops of blood. I then figured out all of the other deer I had shot with that bullet hit a rib going out providing a blood trail, but a lot of those deer ran 100-200 yds so I stopped using them switched to the B-Tip bullet of the time.
This year I purchased a box of Hammers for a new 30 cal Mauser build (it had been about 5-8 years since I built one) and I could not get it to stabilize for crap no matter what I fed it, nor what primer I used, nor doing the ladder test. I finally figured out what was wrong but I was down to 6 Hammers with hunting season coming up quick and another rifle or two to fix before the season so I use some Sierra 165gr BTHP GK that shot excellent. I hope it does its job but I have heard that it blows up, pencils through, all the way to being an excellent bullet on game.

He has another thread on bullet construction that might help you with your query >>> https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/bullet-construction.283735/

 

[Tree61]

So, this is my first action on this forum. I don't have much experience with forums either, so bare with me if I'm not following the proper etiquette, but the pictures below the long write-up have some pretty good illustrations about expansion with rounds claiming to be subsonic. That caught my attention. Are we claiming that subsonic solid copper bullet can reach that good of an expansion? I thought somewhere in that write-up, or one of the comments before it mentioned that solid copper bullets still needed speeds around 2000 or so for expansion.

 

[MW204]

I'm not a doctor, first of all, so I'm not qualified to make such medical determinations. That said, I completely agree it doesn't always happen. I don't believe I said it always happens either. There has to be sufficient trauma to a nerve center to shut down the CNS. Blowing your face off isn't hitting a plexus of nerves. Not everyone gets knocked out in a fight either. Each individual tends to be different. Animals would be the same. Their anatomy does differ a bit from humans though too.

I have seen first hand plenty of examples where an animal has defied the odds and didn't drop and even ran with wounding you'd never think would allow it to be possible. Strange things do happen. If I implied I was talking in absolutes in my posts, I didn't mean to.

As far as the "temporary coma", this is something I've seen mentioned in multiple places, including Nathan Foster describe it. I believe you would be able to find him mention it in some of his articles on his website even. It's just a term I've also decided to use to best describe what I've seen. There are likely millions by now cases of animals being shot in the body and shoulders and didn't receive sufficient hydrostatic shock to drop. It has a lot to do with the particular bullet and how it transfers that energy and shockwave. It depends on where it hits too. It depends on a lot of things really, to include the animal itself.

Thanks for the time and effort you put into this discussion, it is very interesting.

I normally reload 150 gr bullets to hunt deer locally and I can't say that I've been disappointed, but the deer in Nebraska are larger than the ones at home is why I chose the 180gr bullet.

I just came off a mule deer & whitetail hunt, both were shot with the exact same bullet, they reacted in totally different ways-both deer weighed a little over 200 lbs, maybe pushing 250, sorry no scales. I was shooting a 300 WSM with a 180 Nosler BT-I'm sorry my reloading records are in the shop so I can't tell you what the fps were. The mule deer buck dropped within 30 feet it was a heart shot at 225 yds. The whitetail buck was 125 yds and I shot him a little back but midline through the lungs. The buck acted like I didn't even hit it, even though there was an exit hole at least 1" diameter-no guts. The buck did not show any signs of being hit, he walked around slowing like wondering what the heck that was, he turned both sides to me and I could not see any blood. I'll back up for a minute, I sighted my rifle in at 3" high at 100 yds expecting longer shots. When I shot the whitetail he was at a steep angle downwards and slightly quartered and since the buck showed no signs of being shot I shot him again, he fell instantly, which I knew was a spine shot from his reaction. It was only when I got down to him that I discovered that I hit him solid the first time from the exit wound. No blood at all on the left side where the bullets went in and only after him laying on his right side for the time it took me to get to him was there any blood on the right side and it wasn't very much.

The mule deer buck reacted just like most other deer I have shot with the 150gr bullets and didn't go very far at all. The whitetail buck was just the opposite, no reaction, no bleeding from a fatal wound. Where I live the hair on deer is about 3/8" long, on these bucks the hair was almost 3" long. From past bow shots in Nebraska with a Bear Broadhead, the hair seems to cover the exit wounds and does not leave a blood trail, if it does you'd have to get on your hands and knees to look for a drop here and a drop there.

Again this is an interesting read and from my experience, I think there's something to be said about both shock values, but a good pass through with a proper shot & bullet will lead you to your trophy. I think ALL animals react differently, some collapse when shot and I've shot some as in this case that defies what happened.

A good example of the pencil theory is when I first reloaded I used a 7mm 150gr Sierra Match bullet, it worked great until one shot, that shot went in-between two ribs and exited between two ribs, leaving NO blood trail, except I did find 3 small drops on a single leaf. I was lucky a rainstorm just came through and I was able to track the buck by his hoof prints in the mud, but that lesson told me I had been using the wrong bullet so I switched to the Nosler BT.

Another example that isn't on deer. A lady called me and said she had a strange dog at her house that she suspected to be a rabid female dog with 4 puppies that weighed about 7lbs, I'm guessing here. When I got out of my vehicle the momma dog attempted to attack me and I shot her with a Mini-14, using Remington 55gr SP. Since the momma dog was suspected of having rabies the pups had to be put down too. I shot each one with the same bullet and there was not an exit on any of them, which blew my mind, thinking how is that possible, of course if I didn't suspect rabies I would have opened them up to see what happened. I shot the pups from about 10', knocking the pups down instantly as it did their momma. This explains the shock values you were talking about and why they went down so quickly. The entire energy of that bullet was dumped into their bodies. The mom was shot through the chest and the pups through the ribs-heart/lung shots.

Again thank you, this is an excellent read and I've enjoyed everyone that has commented.