Does the 4 port Brake reduce more recoil then the 3 port ?
Muzzle brakes
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Does the 4 port Brake reduce more recoil then the 3 port ?
So a cartridge like mine(6x284) holding 55-60grs of powder a 4 port brake would be of minimal advantage over a 3 port ?
winmag
Well-Known Member
A 3 port or a mini muscle brake is ideal for the WSM's. Jim is making a new one that's kinda in-between those two also.
As far as treating brakes is concerned, why wouldn't you? If it helps prevent pitting. A brake isn't a one time use, & throw away tool for a lot of folks. It can be used on as many pipes as you can wear out.
I have no idea how effective heat treating is, but I bought what I felt was the ideal brake for my cartrige, & rifle build. Id like to try one of Ross's brakes too. Maybe in the future ill get one for one of my other rifles.
I hold no animosity toward anyone's decisions for whatever brake they choose. I'm no metalurgist either, so as far as the effectiveness of treating metal for this purpose or that, I can't form a scientific opinion. But I will say that Jim has always been polite to me, & helpful with questions, & I knew he was a long time LRH sponsor, so, after looking, & researching brakes for better than a year, I chose his because I liked the looks of it. I liked the videos on YouTube. I liked getting questions answered honestly, without Any pressure to buy, & no badmouthing any other LRH sponsors brakes/products. He has always been humble, helpfull, & honest with me, & I felt like I was getting an effective, quality product for the price.
I really liked Kirbys painkiller brake too, & he fit all the same criteria as Jim did. In the end I chose what I felt was best for me in this particular case, & build.
I've hered great things about Ross brakes also. Wildrose swears by them. Ive just never talked to either of you two cause I never knew you were an LRH sponsor,& never saw a sponsor tag untill very recently on posts by grit. Maybe I missed it.?
I did here Mr Ross was involved in a horrible accident not too long ago, during my research on brakes it came up, so Ive definitely hered of your brakes before hand, but just never knew you were a sponsor with grit. I'm very glad to here you are doing well.
You will be involved in my future research.
As far as treating brakes is concerned, why wouldn't you? If it helps prevent pitting. A brake isn't a one time use, & throw away tool for a lot of folks. It can be used on as many pipes as you can wear out.
I have no idea how effective heat treating is, but I bought what I felt was the ideal brake for my cartrige, & rifle build. Id like to try one of Ross's brakes too. Maybe in the future ill get one for one of my other rifles.
I hold no animosity toward anyone's decisions for whatever brake they choose. I'm no metalurgist either, so as far as the effectiveness of treating metal for this purpose or that, I can't form a scientific opinion. But I will say that Jim has always been polite to me, & helpful with questions, & I knew he was a long time LRH sponsor, so, after looking, & researching brakes for better than a year, I chose his because I liked the looks of it. I liked the videos on YouTube. I liked getting questions answered honestly, without Any pressure to buy, & no badmouthing any other LRH sponsors brakes/products. He has always been humble, helpfull, & honest with me, & I felt like I was getting an effective, quality product for the price.
I really liked Kirbys painkiller brake too, & he fit all the same criteria as Jim did. In the end I chose what I felt was best for me in this particular case, & build.
I've hered great things about Ross brakes also. Wildrose swears by them. Ive just never talked to either of you two cause I never knew you were an LRH sponsor,& never saw a sponsor tag untill very recently on posts by grit. Maybe I missed it.?
I did here Mr Ross was involved in a horrible accident not too long ago, during my research on brakes it came up, so Ive definitely hered of your brakes before hand, but just never knew you were a sponsor with grit. I'm very glad to here you are doing well.
You will be involved in my future research.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I've been installing and shooting the Muscle brakes, I have a Hollands on order and will get some from IdahoCDT to try. I've spoken to smiths that have found measurable change in the front baffle on non treated brakes, I have not measured any change. Barrels are hardened to 28-32 Rockwell from what info is available so if that is good for barrels maybe it ain't all that bad for the brake, don't know?
I'm more worried about function, I have yet to use a brake that has the over all awesome performance of the Muscle brake and after installing one everyone seems to want more!
I'm more worried about function, I have yet to use a brake that has the over all awesome performance of the Muscle brake and after installing one everyone seems to want more!
Some may or may not agree with me but i have proven it, been there and done that. Education can be expensive when you learn the hard way.
My original batch of the CSR brakes was made of standard 416 bar stock that has a hardness of R20-21 in it's delivered form. I put one on a friends 300win mag. After about 275-325 rounds of 190 smks on H1000 Greg noticed a fall off in accuracy that would then come and go, and then just go. Luckily Greg shoots alot and this took about 2 months to develop. That brake was bored .022" over bullet dia, allowing a .330 pin gauge to slide thru the bore hole. At the point that he brought in the rifle, only a .315 pin gauge would slide thru.
(The next week, all my existing brakes went out for heat treat, the 416 stock can be hardened up to about 29-31 rockwell scale.)
The thru holes had closed up .015", caused by the displacement of the leading edge of the clearance hole being punished by pressure and residue, rolling over a bur into the leading edge of the hole. This bur was unconcentric thus causing a disruption in accuracy. (Would the change be noticed on a factory rifle that shoots over moa? may-be not.) But this turned his legit sub 1/2 moa gun into a 1 1/2 moa gun.
SS is a gummy sticky material and the little burs want to hold on, after impacts, pressure and work hardening they can fracture off, in other words the clearance hole is in a constant state of change.
Shortly after this discovery I had a 6.5wsm, built by Kirby, come thru the shop with accuracy problems 1-2 moa with about 175 rounds fired. (Now this had a brake that Kirby used before he developed the Painkiller line of brakes, so please don't take this as anything other than an example of this issue being discussed.) A 3 port with straight thru ports no angles. Same issue bur rolled into thru holes and clearance contact issues with the unconcentric bur and bullets.
I replaced the brake and it was back to 1/2moa performance. To the gunsmith that is aware of this potential problem it is easy to spot with or with-out a bore scope, and is the first thing I check on any gun with a brake that comes thru my shop with accuracy issues, because it is that prevalent and common.
I have inspected a radial ported brake with holes around the circumfrance, each little hole showed a formed bur, which thus interfered with concentric clearance.
These brakes all had one thing in common, you guessed it. Now I start with pre-hardened 416 which tests out between 29-31 depending on the lot. This material cost more and takes longer to machine. This does not 100% elliminate the problem but it greatly reduces and slows it. I have an additional step I do in the process of boring the thru holes in the brakes during instal, that now virtually eliminates the formation of any bur in my brakes. Any-one who has ordered a brake from me in the last 2 years know what I am talking about because it is included in the installation instructions.
Now a bur in your brake dosn't mean it needs to be trashed they can be removed/cleaned up by the user, and if watched can give reliable service.
I just don't need the headache of a product that isn't what I feel is the best I can offer.
Hardening does matter, often the brakes "failure" goes unnoticed because it is not on a rifle capable of sub 1/2 moa accuracy.
How many guys have had a good shooting rifle go south and blamed throat erosion when it could have been brake "failure".
I'm not the only custom rifle builder to be aware of this issue, I have discussed it with a few of them. I sell brakes to at least 10 gunsmiths across the country, and they receive my instructions for the install mod to prevent issues and none of them have called to debate my findings as misleading or false.
Like anything in this business mileage may vary, a soft brake on a 26" 308 may show no problems for 1000+ rounds, add a magnum, overbore, short barrel, slow burning powder. and things change in a hurry.
My original batch of the CSR brakes was made of standard 416 bar stock that has a hardness of R20-21 in it's delivered form. I put one on a friends 300win mag. After about 275-325 rounds of 190 smks on H1000 Greg noticed a fall off in accuracy that would then come and go, and then just go. Luckily Greg shoots alot and this took about 2 months to develop. That brake was bored .022" over bullet dia, allowing a .330 pin gauge to slide thru the bore hole. At the point that he brought in the rifle, only a .315 pin gauge would slide thru.
(The next week, all my existing brakes went out for heat treat, the 416 stock can be hardened up to about 29-31 rockwell scale.)
The thru holes had closed up .015", caused by the displacement of the leading edge of the clearance hole being punished by pressure and residue, rolling over a bur into the leading edge of the hole. This bur was unconcentric thus causing a disruption in accuracy. (Would the change be noticed on a factory rifle that shoots over moa? may-be not.) But this turned his legit sub 1/2 moa gun into a 1 1/2 moa gun.
SS is a gummy sticky material and the little burs want to hold on, after impacts, pressure and work hardening they can fracture off, in other words the clearance hole is in a constant state of change.
Shortly after this discovery I had a 6.5wsm, built by Kirby, come thru the shop with accuracy problems 1-2 moa with about 175 rounds fired. (Now this had a brake that Kirby used before he developed the Painkiller line of brakes, so please don't take this as anything other than an example of this issue being discussed.) A 3 port with straight thru ports no angles. Same issue bur rolled into thru holes and clearance contact issues with the unconcentric bur and bullets.
I replaced the brake and it was back to 1/2moa performance. To the gunsmith that is aware of this potential problem it is easy to spot with or with-out a bore scope, and is the first thing I check on any gun with a brake that comes thru my shop with accuracy issues, because it is that prevalent and common.
I have inspected a radial ported brake with holes around the circumfrance, each little hole showed a formed bur, which thus interfered with concentric clearance.
These brakes all had one thing in common, you guessed it. Now I start with pre-hardened 416 which tests out between 29-31 depending on the lot. This material cost more and takes longer to machine. This does not 100% elliminate the problem but it greatly reduces and slows it. I have an additional step I do in the process of boring the thru holes in the brakes during instal, that now virtually eliminates the formation of any bur in my brakes. Any-one who has ordered a brake from me in the last 2 years know what I am talking about because it is included in the installation instructions.
Now a bur in your brake dosn't mean it needs to be trashed they can be removed/cleaned up by the user, and if watched can give reliable service.
I just don't need the headache of a product that isn't what I feel is the best I can offer.
Hardening does matter, often the brakes "failure" goes unnoticed because it is not on a rifle capable of sub 1/2 moa accuracy.
How many guys have had a good shooting rifle go south and blamed throat erosion when it could have been brake "failure".
I'm not the only custom rifle builder to be aware of this issue, I have discussed it with a few of them. I sell brakes to at least 10 gunsmiths across the country, and they receive my instructions for the install mod to prevent issues and none of them have called to debate my findings as misleading or false.
Like anything in this business mileage may vary, a soft brake on a 26" 308 may show no problems for 1000+ rounds, add a magnum, overbore, short barrel, slow burning powder. and things change in a hurry.
Just to clarify I'm not associated with grit nor am I Ross (rem40xb1). I believe grit does smith work. I only do gunsmithing for myself and have for 20 years. 20 years ago I bought a lathe and Ross bought a mill. We taught ourselves to build guns and lots of different versions of muzzle brakes. Now we each have our own lathes and mills. My day job is diesel performance. I build compound and triple turbo's for most of the fastest Duramax drag trucks out there and slugs of 650+hp daily drivers. That's why my handle is Idaho CTD (Cummins Turbo Diesel)
Ross got hit by a truck, while on his quad, up on a early deer hunt in August of last year. He spent 28 days in the hospital and 11 of those in intensive care. Now he has about 30% of the mobility he had before.
Brakes stretch when they are too thin. Weather they are hardened or not they will stretch if they are too thin. A hardened brake will allow it to be machined thinner without stretching but it's not a huge difference between the two. I personally have never worn a brake out weather it was made from hardened barrel cut off's, chromoly, 304, 1018, annealed 416, etc and I have used some brakes on numerous rifles. I have stretched some and blown some apart from turning them too thin though. Jim's brakes may require hardening because they are milled flat and thinner through the top and bottom web. I've never seen one personally only in a picture so I couldn't tell you if that is the case or not.
Carry on
Nathan
hammertyme
Well-Known Member
20 or more years ago I purchased a couple of brakes like pictured in the link from Daryl Holland. It was called the quick discharge. I still have them and they are very good to say the least. In fact they are being sold by big name brand companies out there on the web still.
Holland's Gunsmithing & Shooters Supply
Guess it was about 1998 when I retired from my career and became a machinist, and the shop foreman where I worked is who makes Ross Schulers brake. I know this for a fact because I turned Ross onto my CNC machinist friend. Couple years ago or so or about the time Jim came out with the muscle brake I got a call from my machinist friend in Idaho as he was having problems with some brake ideas and was seeking information. This brake design pictured was in his shop. The way he was describing it I asked him if it was called ?? and it was.
I might add here that Working with my machinist friend was awesome and he taught me well. This is also the only employer (not my friend) that I quit outright without having a job when I learned that the parts I had been making for years were the result of patent Infringement and my machine was making people quite wealthy copying someone else's idea. This was the 2nd or 3rd patent infringement Legal Action for this company.
As Jim indicated, others of us have had the peening problems mention in the bore channel of the brakes. My first was when I got a brake back from someone that is not in business any more. That brake was made of aluminum. He assured me that all was fine and the aluminum would hold up just like any other material. I have had a couple more from a source in Idaho that was made out of ?? steel type product. It just happens and I do not think there is a fault problem anywhere it is the nature of the brake/beast.
For those who may not believe this happens think in terms of,Why does a barrel wear out"? Pretty much the throat extends/erodes and eventually that $400. barrel needs to be replaced. SO why would not the same thing happen to the baffles on a brake. And those baffles are designed to shear all gas and debri and redirect it.
I worked for a smith here many years ago. In my opinion he was pretty shady. One of those shadys was barrels with brakes. When the barrel accuracy went south he always set the person up with a very expensive barrel and brake replacement. The brakes had the burrs on the inside and he did not want to hear that I could fix the brake for $20. Many of these barrels had brakes that he had installed, some did not.
Just sharing
Neal
Holland's Gunsmithing & Shooters Supply
Guess it was about 1998 when I retired from my career and became a machinist, and the shop foreman where I worked is who makes Ross Schulers brake. I know this for a fact because I turned Ross onto my CNC machinist friend. Couple years ago or so or about the time Jim came out with the muscle brake I got a call from my machinist friend in Idaho as he was having problems with some brake ideas and was seeking information. This brake design pictured was in his shop. The way he was describing it I asked him if it was called ?? and it was.
I might add here that Working with my machinist friend was awesome and he taught me well. This is also the only employer (not my friend) that I quit outright without having a job when I learned that the parts I had been making for years were the result of patent Infringement and my machine was making people quite wealthy copying someone else's idea. This was the 2nd or 3rd patent infringement Legal Action for this company.
As Jim indicated, others of us have had the peening problems mention in the bore channel of the brakes. My first was when I got a brake back from someone that is not in business any more. That brake was made of aluminum. He assured me that all was fine and the aluminum would hold up just like any other material. I have had a couple more from a source in Idaho that was made out of ?? steel type product. It just happens and I do not think there is a fault problem anywhere it is the nature of the brake/beast.
For those who may not believe this happens think in terms of,Why does a barrel wear out"? Pretty much the throat extends/erodes and eventually that $400. barrel needs to be replaced. SO why would not the same thing happen to the baffles on a brake. And those baffles are designed to shear all gas and debri and redirect it.
I worked for a smith here many years ago. In my opinion he was pretty shady. One of those shadys was barrels with brakes. When the barrel accuracy went south he always set the person up with a very expensive barrel and brake replacement. The brakes had the burrs on the inside and he did not want to hear that I could fix the brake for $20. Many of these barrels had brakes that he had installed, some did not.
Just sharing
Neal
I just received my" Muscle Brake" Its exactly what i wanted. Thanks for prompt shipment.
D.ID
Well-Known Member
All I can say is I have four of Ross's brakes.......my 338edge has 800+ rounds threw it and no problems at all...... however It has the three port brake and already the rifle doesn't know if its coming or going under recoil....I don't know if I want a 4 or 5 port brake.........I might have to go fetch her after the shot
.
.
Ross got hit by a truck, while on his quad, up on a early deer hunt in August of last year. He spent 28 days in the hospital and 11 of those in intensive care. Now he has about 30% of the mobility he had before.
Carry on
Nathan[/QUOTE]
30% meaning he is paralyzed ? Is this permanent ? My prayers go out for this man and his family.
Carry on
Nathan[/QUOTE]
30% meaning he is paralyzed ? Is this permanent ? My prayers go out for this man and his family.
D.ID
Well-Known Member
I saw him a couple weeks ago and he ain't hoping and skipping but he is still getting around and working.......Check out the gallery at muzzle brakes and more to find a picture of Ross "showing the elk who's boss" with a walker.
rem40xb1
Well-Known Member
Well I do know one thing for sure. Nathans brake is top of the line in recoil reduction and muzzle jump elimination. His 4 port brake at $45.00 shipped is about 1/3 the cost of the other brakes mentioned. I have these brakes on everything from a 223 to a 470 Capstick and they work. Like Nathan over the last 20 years I have never had a problem with the accuracy of a rifle due to the brake. It really all comes down to WHAT'S IN YOUR WALLET One more thing at $45.00 Nathan is still at 100%+ profit.
I would like to ask what is a fair price for something that cost less then $20.00 to make or have made. We see it all around us it is called greedlightbulb
I would like to ask what is a fair price for something that cost less then $20.00 to make or have made. We see it all around us it is called greedlightbulb
