Motivation for ML hunting restrictions

[Murtfree]

I find the arguments for scopes on a "primitive weapon" to be quite hypocritical. The whole reason for a traditional ML season is to hone your skills and take a game animal based on your true skills as a hunter. Here is PA we are limited to Flint Locks and only in more recent years were we allowed to use sabots and bullets. Round Balls were the rule and were meant to keep things traditional, which meant you needed to get within 50 yards, just slightly more than bow range. And for those arguing about crossbows vs recurve vs compounds, your effective range changes very little depending on which you use. For me a 30 yard Bow shot, no matter what I'm using is my personal rule, maybe 35 if all conditions are perfect. Oh, I know there are those Bozos out there taking 80 yard shots with their hyper velocity crossbows, but a 5 yard misjudgment in distance will mean a wounded animal or miss if you are lucky. So for the guys hunting with the precision in lines with scopes seem to be missing the point of a primitive weapons season, which is the real reason ML seasons were created in the first place. It seems that many are upset by the new rules because Game Commissions are finally saying enough is enough. Hunters have now found a way to take the primitive season and turn it into a just another long range rifle season, which completely misses the original intention. I don't think game commissions ever intended the ML season to be another 300 yard rifle season. And for the guys who claim they can't shoot with iron sights, get yourself a Gehman "0" magnification peep sight and you will be able to see like your 20 years old again, that's what is mounted on my Flintlock and I can drop drop 5 saboted bullets in a 3 inch group at 100 yards.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

Because use bullet type and powder restrictions are impossible to enforce. No way to tell what is loaded in someone's gun. This was discussed in NM before the scope ban.

Everyone assumes that there will be more wounding with out scopes. I don't know if this will be true. Guiding elk hunters I've seen a ton of elk wounded with people shooting muzzleloader a like they are center fire rifles, taking shots they shouldn't or are not capable of. I think the wounding rate will stay the same or go down since people will be forced to take closer shots.

You are going to see all western states start banning technology devices. States are banning trail cameras, scopes on muzzleloaders, computers linked devices. There is only so much game and continually increase harvest rates with technology will have an effect on populations. So would you rather sit home with no tag or have a tag with a muzzleloader with no scope. I think I would rather go hunting than sit at home.

Forced to take shots they are not capable of including iron sights. They still will try if opportunity presents itself unfortunately. You truly feel people won't try a shot with iron sights that they shouldn't? The hunters see that beautiful bull or deer or whatever and it's farther they they should take that shot well they will. Not saying they should but that will happen.
Ok let's talk about no way to enforce as you say. Well I am sure you are aware of quick take off mounts. So you walk in with your rifle with iron sights and you spot that great bull 400 yards away. And only 10 minutes till shooting time is up. You reach into your back pack pull out a scope with quick detachable mount already on your scope and a quick easy double lever throw and you have that solid mount attached. Take your shot and 2 more lever throws and its off right back in your back pack. Seems pretty easy to me to get by that.

 

[chav0_12]

Um NO. Maybe some places but definitely not MOST. REAL ARCHERY LMAO. So by real you MUST mean LONG BOW OR RECURVE. Correct?? Absolutely not compound bows. Nothing real about 70 to 80% let off fiber optic sights or scope sights. Peep sights kisser buttons etc. So if long or RECURVE bows are what you are talking about then sure I agree. But if your talking modern compounds. Nope! Absolutely not real archery.

Sure. A crossbow compared to a compound bow is a huge difference. I didn't say no more in-line MLs. Recurve and long bows are to archery what flintlocks are to muzzleloading. I can't put a scope on or shoulder my compound bow. If they said no more compounds, I'd go get a good recurve and start shooting it to become effective. Sorry, but any "archery season" that allows crossbows for non-disabled people isn't an archery season. Tell me that a compound is easier to shoot than a crossbow, I'd love to hear that argument.

 

[LRNut]

I am all for this rule - ML is supposed to be a primitive hunt but let's face it, with a rangefinder and modern equipment, today's MLs are as deadly as CF rifles from the 70s and 80s. You are free to use your ML during the regular CF season.

I witnessed how effective thermal imagining can be on a hunt last month in New Zealand (was an observer on a night hunt). I immediately thought these would be fantastic in CO, but found out they are not legal to use. Bummer, but I can understand why.

I am going to be 64 in a few weeks, and I have trouble with open sights. So because I am old I should get an exception? I had my chances back in the day; happy to let others have their turn.

 

[LRNut]

Forced to take shots they are not capable of including iron sights. They still will try if opportunity presents itself unfortunately. You truly feel people won't try a shot with iron sights that they shouldn't? The hunters see that beautiful bull or deer or whatever and it's farther they they should take that shot well they will. Not saying they should but that will happen.
Ok let's talk about no way to enforce as you say. Well I am sure you are aware of quick take off mounts. So you walk in with your rifle with iron sights and you spot that great bull 400 yards away. And only 10 minutes till shooting time is up. You reach into your back pack pull out a scope with quick detachable mount already on your scope and a quick easy double lever throw and you have that solid mount attached. Take your shot and 2 more lever throws and its off right back in your back pack. Seems pretty easy to me to get by that.

Well, seems pretty easy to me too: if you did that, you would be nothing but a poacher.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Hmm...? "Let's increase the probability of wounded animals due to the inaccuracy of the weapon so that the hunter gets to shoot and wound several animals before filling a tag. This will be better for population numbers."

Absolutely GENIUS plan! Makes perfect sense.

 

[CCAguns]

Encouraging people to be less efficient is like expecting them to work but giving them money for doing nothing!

 

[22250imp]

I know a lot of you guys probably will disagree with me but lets keep it a little bit primitive. I am a ML guy and love the season. Here in CO ,especially with elk, you get to hunt the rut. Today's muzzle loaders are such much more proficient than what they used to be it's already a game changer. If you are going to allow scopes on muzzle loaders why even have a muzzle loader season. Just open it up to a limited rifle season. In my opinion it does deter some hunters and that is one reason I love the ML season. Not so many people in the woods and it is a more challenging hunt. And yes I'm one of those guys with aging eyes. I have had to adapt with different sights but they are still iron sights. I just know my limitations and go with that. Some of the die hard ML guys will even argue against in lines. I have managed to kill deer, elk, and antelope with my ML with no losses. I just don't take the shot unless I know I can make it happen. It makes you a better hunter and isn't that what it is supposed to be about. Time out in the field. Especially with family and friends. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

It's a muzzle loader, already severely handicapped as compared to other rifles and nowhere near the most efficient means of harvesting game. The effective lethal range on deer sized game is around 250 yards. The two options to prevent over harvesting are to lower the success rate or reduce the number of tags. There are arguments on both sides. They chose to maintain participation but lower the success rate, I'm sure with a lot of input and consideration. "Stupidity" is a little harsh as a reason for the decision. Given the choice, I would probably want to use a scope, but if I loved to hunt with a muzzle loader, I would use the iron sights if required.

KHMPLUS, they are not talking mostly about a 250 to 300 muzzleloader its the modern smokeless version most are thinking of. My McWhorter 45XML (was at the range just yesterday) and mine is shooting a 303gr Pittman aeromax at 3100+ fps. 92gr of 10x has promise but it only shot .7 last night. 89 gr of 10x shot 3025 and .3 " so it's a bit different ball of wax. Much more capable for sure. So I understand where people come from and get upset a bit about it but I just love my McWhorter.

 

[CCAguns]

For the conscientious hunter, a riflescope provides a better sight picture for a more accurate shot. It doesn't extend the range of a firearm. Older folks aren't the only ones that may have trouble shooting iron sights. But "throwing lead" at an animal is not what we should be teaching. Marksmanship is vital to game conservation. Why limit one's ability to make a more accurate shot? The scope does not extend one's range!

 

[asd9055]

KHMPLUS, they are not talking mostly about a 250 to 300 muzzleloader its the modern smokeless version most are thinking of. My McWhorter 45XML (was at the range just yesterday) and mine is shooting a 303gr Pittman aeromax at 3100+ fps. 92gr of 10x has promise but it only shot .7 last night. 89 gr of 10x shot 3025 and .3 " so it's a bit different ball of wax. Much more capable for sure. So I understand where people come from and get upset a bit about it but I just love my McWhorter.

What is a bolt doing on a muzzleloader? Not legal in my state.

 

[chav0_12]

For the conscientious hunter, a riflescope provides a better sight picture for a more accurate shot. It doesn't extend the range of a firearm. Older folks aren't the only ones that may have trouble shooting iron sights. But "throwing lead" at an animal is not what we should be teaching. Marksmanship is vital to game conservation. Why limit one's ability to make a more accurate shot? The scope does not extend one's range!

I agree than an optic won't increase a weapon system's max effective range in terms of velocity and trajectory. It does however increase a shooters max effective range. There's a big difference. Shooting with iron sights on something like an M4 out to 300m is a lot more difficult than doing it with an ACOG or even an EOTECH. Can it be done with irons? Absolutely, but it's a lot easier with an optic.

 

[asd9055]

For the conscientious hunter, a riflescope provides a better sight picture for a more accurate shot. It doesn't extend the range of a firearm. Older folks aren't the only ones that may have trouble shooting iron sights. But "throwing lead" at an animal is not what we should be teaching. Marksmanship is vital to game conservation. Why limit one's ability to make a more accurate shot? The scope does not extend one's range!

They are no limiting them, just NO special rights, hunt in the regular season.

 

[George Dean]

Been talking about this with my cousin. Why there are so many restrictions on muzzleloaders for hunting and will more States follow Colorado and add more restrictions. Wondering if anyone has firsthand knowledge of what the law makers motivations are?
My cousin believes they want to lower success rates by limiting the weapons range and efficiency so they can sell more tags, basically greed.
I always assumed it was that people just have different ideas of what a muzzleloader is. Also hard for me to believe a wildlife organization wanting less efficient weapons. Wouldn't that lead to more lost game?
Can anyone explain the real reasons? And do you expect more restrictions to come? Like no scopes, no .45 calibers, ect?

I believe the restrictions rational are correct: The point of hunting, with an ML, should be to replicate the joy of being able to hunt the way our ancestors hunted. Hunting with weapons which perform as well as a center-fire rifle are just to fill a freezer with meat. They are not used to hunt, you may as well be using a M2 machingun or harvesting a field of wheat with a reaper.