Most brass too short. Trim them all?

I can't see how you can get good data to make decisions on case trim length shooting prone off Bipods in a wheat field...

...I know how tough it is to get under 1MOA off Bipods. My 308 will get under .5MOA off the bench, but off Bipods when I'm shooting a lot more like .75 to 1 MOA.

I was hoping to get good data from the internet (specifically this forum) and not rely on a bipod in a wheat field. =)

I shoot every weekend, but I have a bunch of guns I love. Eliminating variables for my hunting rig, on a Wednesday night reloading/researching, also seems like a good pursuit.
 
I feel you would get more measurable results from annealing, paying close attention to neck tension and neck run-out than you would messing with a few thousandth of case length.
 
Just a few months ago I struggled with this very thing but for a different reason. In my case my chamber neck is long so I don't need to trim probably for the life of the case. However it drove me nuts not having the case's all the same length.

What persuaded me to not trim anymore is fear of getting a carbon ring in the chamber neck. So what I now do is trim my brass after the first firing to the longest length possible and I won't trim again unless my brass exeedes 2.660.

Currently I have brass ranging from 2.610 to 2.630 and I can't see any difference on paper or over the chrono.

So my point is i don't think you would see any gain or diminish either way and it's up to you which route you wanna take.
 
Once you know your chamber length how much shorter do you recommend keeping the cases. TKS
Tightest clearance manageable. Ideal in my mind & practice is -5thou, and tolerating under 10thou. If you can't get them that close, then obviously you have what you have, but it makes no sense to trim them all to the worst.
As far as hard consistency in trim length, it is so minor that nobody could get a system isolating performance of X-or-Y w/resp to it.

In the long term, big neck clearances, and big end clearances contribute to neck sooting, carbon buildup in the chamber, and inconsistent case sealing and stretch. This situation is not free as it can contribute to higher SD more so than relatively tiny variances in neck tension(the potential in trim length variance).
But it's manageable, and in most cases I'm sure it doesn't matter much.

I just think you're better to have some variance in trim length than to have them all way short of chamber end.
 
If cases are trimmed to the proper length, there will be a space between the case mouth and the neck chamber, Even if it is only a few thousandths. There can be a carbon build up in this area no matter how much gap you have. This deposit should be removed with cleaning when it starts, to prevent pressure and feeding problems.

It is the side effect of powder being burned and will happen no matter what gap you have. it should/can be dealt with on a regular cleaning regiment.

All I can say is that I have seen changes as little as .008 to .010 thousandths groups and improvements in SDs as little as 3 or 4 when I did everything as well as I could. So Yes there is a difference. Is it worth your effort ? that depends on how well you need the rifle to shoot. If I am shooting off hand, obviously I cant see the difference or measure the difference, But I know I have the best ammo for the rifle and any error is mine.

I want my rifles to out shoot me every time. this also takes away any excuses and I shoot better. I feed all my weapons the best ammo I can produce and have never been sorry. I enjoy re loading and don't mind the extra time to do everything as well as I can. If a person feel that little things don't matter, its his choice. I need all the help I can get, so I try to improve anywhere I can.

Just Me

J E CUSTOM
 
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Was hoping there's some statistics, formulas, experience regarding neck length. Last thing I'm trying to address...[/QUOTE]

Forgot to comment on this question.

I don't think there will ever be a way of measuring these differences because of the number of different factors and the way each is dealt with by the loader. I have seen cases with very little neck length that are bench rest accurate and also cases with long necks that are also very accurate because the loader has taken steps to reach this level.

It would be nice, but I don't think we will ever see any real proof that one is better that the other

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM
 
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entoptics
I agree with removing as many variables as possible and Mikecr has a good point that we can easily end up tail chasing when we attempt to improving something. A commonly recommended trim length for a 300 WM is 2.610 (0.01 under maximum) so if your shortest case is 2.606 you are pretty close and I wouldn't have a problem trimming to there. I know some report excessive throat erosion with overly shortenend cases but I don't know where that line is (I try to keep my case lengths at 0.01 under max when possible). I checked my new Norma 300 WM and they also measured at average approximately 2.606. I have tested several brass variances for their affect on accuracy. Of course this is not a scientific study but I tried to keep other variables constant. Case weight. I had some 7mm Weatherby brass with batches varying as much as 20 grains widening groups an additional 1.5 MOA. Neck tension. Tested annealed vs cases requiring unusually high seating pressure. Cases with necks tensions that are significantly varied caused about the same 1.5 MOA. Anneal as necessary. Case length has only caused me an issue when foulings were present in the throat as mentioned above. Was able to cut down on flyers by turning case necks. Too many possible variables (head space, sizing, concentricity, etc.) to list but the ones I have listed are easy to monitor and correct. I prefer to shoot from a bipod (normal hunting rig) and consistent 1/2 MOA groups are common. Hope this helps you shoot smaller.
 
The reason I would/do recommend trimming to the same length is for consistency. Also I would do it before any re loading/testing begins.
That's also what I would do.
If they are not all the same it's more likely to affect things than having them a few thousandths short of some recommended dimension.
 
I havent read through all the posts but I have one rifle that has a long necked chamber. some years ago I didn't trim much but ran into case necks getting cracks from the uneven mouth so I started to trim those in lots of 50 to the same length and keep my chamber clean and the brass will go for many many rounds :)
Good luck
 
Carbon builds where it goes. Where it travels to and is stopped.
The higher your end clearance the lower the angle for gas to egress from case mouth backward to between neck and chamber neck. All the way back to shoulders if your neck clearance is high enough and you FL size necks and/or run low pressure loads.
When the case mouth expands to chamber it shuts off flow momentum right there, and that is where carbon builds. Right at the case mouth, regardless of where you put it.

Now, with tight end clearances, you've established very high angles for gas to work it's way back through. Add rational neck clearance and partial neck sizing, and the case mouth will seal before much if any get's past it, and little if any backward momentum has developed. A buildup here drops to very manageable/harmless residue.

If all your cases are trimmed way short of chamber end, you will have problem carbon buildup(if unmanaged). So with further reload cycles you'll need to mind your trim lengths with more diligence. Otherwise a longer case could chamber with interference fit and result in a pressure spike. Easy enough to manage also, but easier to stop causing it to begin. Just stop trimming so much.

A wildcat of mine has fitted necks, partially sized, and trimmed to within 5thou end clearance. I run at SAAMI max. There is zero sooting on necks, and zero carbon left in the chamber(not even at the chamber end). Here, there is no backflow, only what I imagine as brief expansion that is sucked right back to the bore with bullet release.
 
Mikecr
Thanks for the info. Great insight. I've ordered some chamber length gages from Sinclair so I can determine my chamber length. I always figured that longer was better as long as it's not too long. It was this carbon ring in the chamber that scared me.
TKS
 
I tried the DIY case mouth gauge mentioned here.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/how-to-craft-your-own-chamber-length-gauge/

It didn't work so great, as the fit was too tight for the cut ring to slide down well, but even with the gross measurements from two tries, I reckon I'm probably near SAAMI max around 2.67".

If I were to trim too short, but all my cases were the same, would this mitigate the "carbon ring" issues?

Ideally, I'm about to load up ~250 rounds and won't reload anymore win mag till those are gone. At that point, I'd re-evaluate my brass, trim to conformity, and clean the chamber in preparation for the new length.

Also, what steps would one take to "clean the chamber" such that the carbon ring doesn't get out of hand? Is regular cleaning enough? I like to let my gun foul to equilibrium, so I rarely deep clean. Every 30-50 rounds, I'll run a Hoppes patch or two, then a 1 or 2 passes with a brush, and then half dozen Hoppes patches with a little soak time in between. There's still light blue streaks on the last patch when I quit.
 
It's a problem when neglected.
If you stay on top of it(each cleaning is enough), you can knock down mild carbon buildup with a heavy weight nylon brush and solvent like KG-12.

You could trim cases every time to an exact length, but make sure your shoulder bumps take you to an exact headspace for the same reason. Typically you'll see shiny spots on the end of case mouths when you're bumping into a carbon ring. Look at each ejected case for this.
 
Good to know. Info like this is why I signed up. Should have done it a couple years ago.

Turns out, I'm not ready to "load up 250 and call it good". Got my concentricity gauge today. Just ran a dozen loads over it. Was really pleased for a second, as the first two came out at about 0.001" TIR. Then...0.006" came along.

Out of 11, 6 were great ≥0.0015", and 5 were over 0.004". Looks like I need to do a bit of work on my setup before I sit down for the long haul.

I might have a chance to do a test on these loads, and see if the batch of wobbly ones shoots a bad group. Perhaps I'll throw all the variables into a couple groups (e.g. variable necks, weights, and bad concentricity) and eliminate them all for a couple groups worth, and see if there's a big difference. Either way, I'm going to make an effort to get everything down below 2 or 3 thousands TIR before I proceed.

Sigh...Just when I thought I was done. Should have never bought the concentricity gauge...Guess I should just be glad I'm not a good enough shooter to see all the other variables... ;)
 
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