More reloading issues

[Mikecr]

Theres no way that all my hornady brass is that weak after being shot once is there?

Depends more on your load and chamber than brass. That is, unless you annealed low on the cases before firing them.

even though it fires factory ammo fine?

How does firing factory ammo fine correlate to bad hornady brass?

I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with the brass. The fact that the fired brass chambers fine while indexed to a favorable position discounts brass as the issue.
It points to a problem with your barrel, or chamber, and/or action.

Tell us about the gun & load

 

[green 788]

You sanded down the web area and the case chambered... so here's the issue:

You're not getting enough sizing on the case.

Check OAL of these cases also. I'll bet they're longer than 3.715", which is the Lapua factory length. I've found some of the Hornady cases I've shot come out of the chamber at 3.740" !! WAY over length.

And I'll bet you something else... you cannot slip a bullet into the neck of the fired Hornady case, its neck is so thick and the Savage chamber so tight that the neck isn't releasing the bullet until pressures darn near spike. (You're sanding the wrong end of the case, perhaps!)

On the sizing issue...

Just because you screw the die into the press until it touches the shell holder, that does not mean you're getting enough sizing on the case. While it is true that a fired case should re-chamber easily enough, if they're being shot over-pressure (for the reasons I mentioned earlier), they'll stretch too much and need a FULL resizing... here's how to make sure you're getting it done:

You want to turn your sizing die in about 1/8 turn, in increments, FARTHER than the shell holder will allow with no case in the die. Then try to chamber the case... if it resists chambering, turn in another 1/8 turn and repeat. The press must still cam over each time, of course...

You see, when the die goes into the case, that puts the press under a load and you'll see that even though the ram goes all the way up, there is a sliver... a tiny gap between the die base and the shell holder. This happens because once the press gets under a load (from inserting the case into the die), the linkage "springs" a bit, and doesn't bring the ram up as far as it does with no case in the die.

So turn the die in a bit farther than you think you need to. That'll cause the case to be sized at the web area, which is what you're missing.

Trim the Hornady cases to 3.715"... turn the necks a bit, or at least take off half a thousandth or so off the outside of the case neck, so that it can relax enough the release the bullet (do this only if you find that a bullet won't slip into the case mouth of a fired case)...

Then relegate the Hornady cases to lighter pressure duty, maybe looking for 2500 fps from 300 grain bullets... or 2600 from 250's... that should make them last quite a bit longer.

If you want to put the pedal to the metal... get some Lapua brass.

Please write back in response so we'll know how this issue is going...

Dan

 

[dino foss]

You sanded down the web area and the case chambered... so here's the issue:

You're not getting enough sizing on the case.

Check OAL of these cases also. I'll bet they're longer than 3.715", which is the Lapua factory length. I've found some of the Hornady cases I've shot come out of the chamber at 3.740" !! WAY over length.

And I'll bet you something else... you cannot slip a bullet into the neck of the fired Hornady case, its neck is so thick and the Savage chamber so tight that the neck isn't releasing the bullet until pressures darn near spike. (You're sanding the wrong end of the case, perhaps!)

On the sizing issue...

Just because you screw the die into the press until it touches the shell holder, that does not mean you're getting enough sizing on the case. While it is true that a fired case should re-chamber easily enough, if they're being shot over-pressure (for the reasons I mentioned earlier), they'll stretch too much and need a FULL resizing... here's how to make sure you're getting it done:

You want to turn your sizing die in about 1/8 turn, in increments, FARTHER than the shell holder will allow with no case in the die. Then try to chamber the case... if it resists chambering, turn in another 1/8 turn and repeat. The press must still cam over each time, of course...

You see, when the die goes into the case, that puts the press under a load and you'll see that even though the ram goes all the way up, there is a sliver... a tiny gap between the die base and the shell holder. This happens because once the press gets under a load (from inserting the case into the die), the linkage "springs" a bit, and doesn't bring the ram up as far as it does with no case in the die.

So turn the die in a bit farther than you think you need to. That'll cause the case to be sized at the web area, which is what you're missing.

Trim the Hornady cases to 3.715"... turn the necks a bit, or at least take off half a thousandth or so off the outside of the case neck, so that it can relax enough the release the bullet (do this only if you find that a bullet won't slip into the case mouth of a fired case)...

Then relegate the Hornady cases to lighter pressure duty, maybe looking for 2500 fps from 300 grain bullets... or 2600 from 250's... that should make them last quite a bit longer.

If you want to put the pedal to the metal... get some Lapua brass.

Please write back in response so we'll know how this issue is going...

Dan

Ive done exactly what you said to do and to no avail. I havent tried the lapua brass yet but I think its the rifle. The only problem is that Savage wont recognize any warrenty issues if it shoots factory ammo. Whats a guy to do? It would be better for me to buy another rifle than pay to get the old one fixed.

 

[dino foss]

Is there any way to have the brass sized entirely back to factory specs?

 

[Nimrod]

Hey Dino,
If the chamber is out of round then Savage should fix it. I hope they would take care of it.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Why?

Being a toolmaker by trade and business, I disagree with your statement (using the upper jaw for measurement). It's not proper or accepted, but then I wonder how many people really know the proper use of a micrometer......

Jaw calipers were designed primarily to remove the 'human factor' when measuring. No need to develop the proper 'feel' for thimble tension.

I'm curious as to why a micrometer should be used however.... Please elaborate....

Just a thought on the measuring method only. The upper part of the jaws are flat, and roughly .125" thick (maybe more), but the body of the case is tapered. You can never get a consistent reading by this method. The lower part of the jaws is much thinner and the flat is about .025". This is better but still not all that accurate as well. I would make myself a bushing to measure over with the correct I.D.
gary

 

[SidecarFlip]

Just a thought on the measuring method only. The upper part of the jaws are flat, and roughly .125" thick (maybe more), but the body of the case is tapered. You can never get a consistent reading by this method. The lower part of the jaws is much thinner and the flat is about .025". This is better but still not all that accurate as well. I would make myself a bushing to measure over with the correct I.D.
gary

Thanks for the input Gary...as usual. I tend to shoot from the hip on shop questions.

In lieu of any busing, a thread mike would work or double ball ends on the spindle and anvil (on a mike0.

 

[green 788]

did you see if you could slip a bullet into a fired case?

You ask if there's any way to size the brass back to factory specs... and I mentioned that, though you said you've done it. If your dies are doing their job, the cases should come back to spec, all the way... just be sure you can't see a sliver of light (back light with a flashlight) between die base and shell holder when the ram is all the way up. You shouldn't of course have to size the cases that aggressively, but they've obviously been stretched from over-pressure, or so it seems...

If your chamber is out of round, you'll see that as you mic the case web area at different points... if it's the same reading all the way around (within .001" or so), the chamber would seem fine.

If the fired cases are ALL broader one way than another (say they're .003" wider from 3 to 9 o'clock than from 12 to 6 o'clock)... then I would agree that the chamber is egg shaped.

My rifle (a Savage 110BA) would hang cases from Hornady FACTORY match loads, the 285 grain match ammo, and cases were stretching at the neck area by as much as 20 thousandths! But the problem is soft Hornady brass (ejector marks on even the factory loads), and thick necks that won't let the neck expand to let the bullet release (again, see if you can slip a bullet into the neck of a fired case and post result)...

When brass is stressed to the point that it's obviously getting stressed (I have pretty flat primers on the Hornady factory ammo I've shot)... then weird things can happen. I had to tap the fired cases free from my chamber with a Dewey rod, the extractor just jumped the rim and left the case in the chamber. No such problem with Lapua cases, however...

I would just hate to see you send the rifle back to Savage and get told just what you're suspecting, that it's all well and good and your ammo has been the problem.

I'll go measure some of my fired cases and see what they're showing in the web area for girth... I'll post back in a little while...

Dan

 

[green 788]

My fired Hornady cases are .584" where you're measuring... my fired Lapua cases are the same, and I don't give a total FL sizing to my brass, just enough to take care of the neck, not bumping the shoulder...

If your cases have to be turned to a certain index point before they'll go in smoothly, you should see the evidence for that my measuring the case web area at different points, finding that the brass is a thousandth or two bigger one way than the other (egg shaped). That would point to a bad chamber.

If your fired cases are .585" all the way around, then your chamber is not out of round... the only way to be sure is to mic the cases all the way around, check several of them.

The fired cases should chamber, without any sizing--unless they've been stretched... which it seems they have.

I'm still curious as to whether you can slip a bullet into the case mouth of a fired case...

Dan

 

[SidecarFlip]

Another great-ongoing .338 thread.....

It's obvious (at least to me) that there are definitively good and not so good in brass.

...and it appears (to me at least) that Hornady needs to do some serious homework. Loose primer pockets to begin with and now, too much neck tension.

Having said that, I was sure to specify my last order from HSM loaded in Lapua brass....sitting right here BTW, with the all too familiar headstamp.

Some rifles eat anything in the particular caliber they are chambered for. Obviously, not Savage in .338 LM. Case in point, my .223 match rifle. It consumes any brand brass so long as it's FL resized prior to loading (in the case of OFB). After that a quick neck size and ocassional annealing.

The Savage seems to have an expensive palate when it comes to reloads. This caliber, at least in a Savage chamber, appears much more unforgiving.

I'm standing by and reading with great interest.....again and again, Mr. Green appears to be on to something. Obviously experience is the best teacher.

 

[dino foss]

Thanks Dan, Almost all my cases so far will let me push a bullet through the neck by hand. There is only a few necks that are to tight for this.
I contacted Savage again and they just keep saying if my rifle is firing factory ammo that the rifle is fine

I also contacted a warrenty guns smith for Savage that said if the chamber need to be reemed true that it was not too expensive. He explained to me that he would cut the ballel 3/8 of an inch at the breech end and reem it true. I dont know if I got his info all right but I think that is what he meant.
I will be picking up some lapua brass on friday and hopefully firing some that day. One thing I forgot to mention is that I have no trouble extracting the brass from the chamber, its been fairly easy.
Dan I am still pretty new to the reload game so I have a question that may sound stupid on my side. When full resizing brass I thought that the dies cant resize the lower webbing and that it stops at a point where the brass is strong enough it wont be affected by the standard pressures. I thought small base dies were used for entire case resizing. Like I said earlier Im new to this and learning lots from some of my dumb questions.

 

[green 788]

I ran some of my cases through the FL dies I have (Lyman) and checked the size of the fired Hornady cases before and after...

On my Hornady cases, the area where you colored the case with a sharpie and the marker rubbed off on one side, that area on my brass is reducing by .001" to .002", going from .584" to .583" or .582"...

Small base dies would reach farther toward the case head than the marker rub you see in your pictures... but the area that shows the rub mark in your photo can still be reached with standard FL dies--at least my Lyman dies seem to reach it...

Small base dies would be used for lever actions or semi-auto rifles, or single shot rifles... this makes them easier to feed. Sierra recommends against using SB dies, except as a last resort, as it's overly hard on the case life.

All of this said... your fired cases should be re-chambering without any re-sizing. The fact that they are not says that the brass has stretched.

I think the Lapua brass will solve your problem. Pretty much everywhere you look on the www regarding the Savage .338LM and brass issues, switching to Lapua cases made the problem go away.

But you're like me, you're still going to want to get some use out of the Hornady cases. so they'll need to be trimmed to the correct length (3.715"), and FL sized all the way down to the area that you see has rubbed.

If you're sure you can't get the cases to run any farther up into the die (you've screwed the die down in small increments until the press won't cam over, then screwed it back out *just enough* to let the press cam over... then that's all you can do. Other brands of reloading dies might give you just a tiny bit more sizing... shouldn't need more than .001" to .002" max at that smudged area shown in your photograph and all should fit.

People will buy your used Hornady cases if you can't find a way to make them work...

Good luck.

Dan

 

[green 788]

by the way... did you mic these cases all the way around the base? reason I ask is if you have an egg shaped chamber (not really likely, I don't think), you would see egg shaped brass come out of that chamber.

what have you found in this regard?

 

[dino foss]

by the way... did you mic these cases all the way around the base? reason I ask is if you have an egg shaped chamber (not really likely, I don't think), you would see egg shaped brass come out of that chamber.

what have you found in this regard?

I sure hope your right about the Brass. I need to buy a mic to do the measurements that you are asking for and I will buy one tomorrow. The tests that I did with the caliper could not really measure any differences.
I will hopefully post sat or sunday my results with the lapua brass.