shooter7
Well-Known Member
E-t-h-i-c-a-l is the violation. As per rule 1 we don't discuss this on the forum.
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Moose Hunt
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Huntz
Well-Known Member
It seems like your guide was more afraid that in case you wounded the animal,he might have to actually do his job and track it.I would have shot any way.It is better to ask for forgiveness than ask permission.JMHO,Huntz
Most guides and outfitters are not experienced with hunters who can successfully shoot past 300yds! There are multiple recommendations posted here that help resolve this and be able to make your point or at least reach a reasonable compromise
coyotemaster
Well-Known Member
I suppose I see the guides logic but he didn't know you or your capabilities and should have left it up to the guy paying the bill to decide.
I'm a skeptic I suppose but maybe he had another paying client coming in and now knew where a monster lived.Forgive my lack of trust- getting old and seen too much of human nature.
I'm a skeptic I suppose but maybe he had another paying client coming in and now knew where a monster lived.Forgive my lack of trust- getting old and seen too much of human nature.
SilverbulletMAG
Well-Known Member
I'd be ticked. And then for him to imply you either a) don't care for the animal or b) are beneath him on some moral ground because he respects the animal more, would just tick me off even more. Prime example of why I avoid guided hunts when possible.
Sounds like you handled it as well as could be expected, so hats off to you there. I'd like to think I would have remained calm as well....not so sure though.
Sounds like you handled it as well as could be expected, so hats off to you there. I'd like to think I would have remained calm as well....not so sure though.
Canadian moose with a 7mm mag arrrrh my opinion that's a little on the light side and as bad as it feels he probably made the right call. The guide has most likely had a number of hunters tell him how good of a shot they are I do agree it would have been tough to swallow also like one of the other comments that should have been discussed earlier
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
You are going for ethics here and I call, "Bolony!"
Careful.....the thought police are out. I get the "ethics" rule. It might keep the Sierra Club weenies from getting on here but I don't think this applies to what is being talked about in this thread.
I see there is a whole forum section on "Outfitters-Long Range Friendly" on here at the very bottom of the forum list. It is possible the outfitter in question was not on that list.
I see there is a whole forum section on "Outfitters-Long Range Friendly" on here at the very bottom of the forum list. It is possible the outfitter in question was not on that list.
KyCarl
Well-Known Member
It seems that a pointed list of questions are in order before a deposit is put down!
wstetson
Well-Known Member
First mistake was not establishing distance limitations specifically. In my experience that may be stated on the outfitter's web site or in the paperwork the hunter signs when registering on arrival, even if it's not stated verbally.
For those saying take the shot anyway, on the three guided hunts I've been on, one in Canada, two on private ranches in the US, the paperwork signed has included some specific rules. It is, in effect, a contract. I scanned the pages quickly so I don't remember all details. As regards hunting behavior, you are under the control of the outfitter and the guides (think about the outfitter's liability insurance and terms).
When ignoring directions of a licensed outfitter/guide on private land in the US you may well be committing a game violation, or worse.
As to the "what is he going to do" statements, the outfitter is guaranteed to be on a first name basis with the sheriff and game officers. Often it is not better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.
I don't know Canadian law but ignoring the outfitter/guide in a foreign country would probably be a bad idea.
For those saying take the shot anyway, on the three guided hunts I've been on, one in Canada, two on private ranches in the US, the paperwork signed has included some specific rules. It is, in effect, a contract. I scanned the pages quickly so I don't remember all details. As regards hunting behavior, you are under the control of the outfitter and the guides (think about the outfitter's liability insurance and terms).
When ignoring directions of a licensed outfitter/guide on private land in the US you may well be committing a game violation, or worse.
As to the "what is he going to do" statements, the outfitter is guaranteed to be on a first name basis with the sheriff and game officers. Often it is not better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.
I don't know Canadian law but ignoring the outfitter/guide in a foreign country would probably be a bad idea.
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Just throwing this out there.....we are only hearing one side of the story.
Unless you have guided hunters I think it's not all that reasonable for you to judge the guides and outfitters. It's like the internet trolls literally wind up in your camp. I have had clients tell me they are fit, ex special forces, high speed low drag, and wonder if I'll be able to keep up. When boots hit the ground only one of was the real deal. I have seen clients eject live rounds on the ground thinking they were actually firing. I've had men shake so bad they can't breath, can't walk, can't hold their rifle. Women usually do exactly what they say can do, hmmm.
My point is that all this stuff can and needs to be worked out ahead of time, not with an animal in your sights. It's up to both the outfitter and client to get to know each other. People these days tend to way overstate their abilities because everyone thinks they are a bad@ss. It's just a function of communication and understanding. It is very possible the outfitter did state what their expectations are. I will say this, if I go with a guide, I am going to be **** sure to let him know my expectations and what he can expect from me. We are going to be a team and I want us to be dam* good one.
Unless you have guided hunters I think it's not all that reasonable for you to judge the guides and outfitters. It's like the internet trolls literally wind up in your camp. I have had clients tell me they are fit, ex special forces, high speed low drag, and wonder if I'll be able to keep up. When boots hit the ground only one of was the real deal. I have seen clients eject live rounds on the ground thinking they were actually firing. I've had men shake so bad they can't breath, can't walk, can't hold their rifle. Women usually do exactly what they say can do, hmmm.
My point is that all this stuff can and needs to be worked out ahead of time, not with an animal in your sights. It's up to both the outfitter and client to get to know each other. People these days tend to way overstate their abilities because everyone thinks they are a bad@ss. It's just a function of communication and understanding. It is very possible the outfitter did state what their expectations are. I will say this, if I go with a guide, I am going to be **** sure to let him know my expectations and what he can expect from me. We are going to be a team and I want us to be dam* good one.
freddiej
Well-Known Member
Speaking from being on both sides of this argument: All I am going to do is ask a couple of questions then opine once and let it go.
First off did he, PH/Guide, have you shoot long range before he took you out? did he know how well disciplined you are in shot placement? Did he know you could shoot 1K?
if not, that is more or less his blunder. I am guilty of this a few times. I completely admit to being brainless on a few occasions.
I have had multiple hunters while I guided in Montana that could shoot 1K and hit within 6" of their intended point of aim at 1K. If an opportunity had presented like yours; I would have been the best spotter you could get. Knowledge is king and practice is Queen.
as a hunter and knowing my range with my 300 W/M and my 338 W/M. 300 yards is a chip shot for me and 600 is my max for hunting. I would have been furious to have a PH tell me I could not take the shot.
now, I will say this. if you had that problem with this outfitter, next time, if there is a next time with this outfitter, show them you can shoot 1K yards. tell them your max range is 500 to 550 yards for a shot. make them understand you are competent hunter and can make an ethical shot at 500 or 550 yards. then the responsibility is all on them to either get you within their comfort range or allow you to take the shot you are comfortable with. end of Opine. have a great one y'all.
First off did he, PH/Guide, have you shoot long range before he took you out? did he know how well disciplined you are in shot placement? Did he know you could shoot 1K?
if not, that is more or less his blunder. I am guilty of this a few times. I completely admit to being brainless on a few occasions.
I have had multiple hunters while I guided in Montana that could shoot 1K and hit within 6" of their intended point of aim at 1K. If an opportunity had presented like yours; I would have been the best spotter you could get. Knowledge is king and practice is Queen.
as a hunter and knowing my range with my 300 W/M and my 338 W/M. 300 yards is a chip shot for me and 600 is my max for hunting. I would have been furious to have a PH tell me I could not take the shot.
now, I will say this. if you had that problem with this outfitter, next time, if there is a next time with this outfitter, show them you can shoot 1K yards. tell them your max range is 500 to 550 yards for a shot. make them understand you are competent hunter and can make an ethical shot at 500 or 550 yards. then the responsibility is all on them to either get you within their comfort range or allow you to take the shot you are comfortable with. end of Opine. have a great one y'all.
