Moose Down 778m

[Scrubbit]

Does that include the hunting VLDs Elk?

 

[Scrubbit]

The second bullet looks a lot like a pile of bullets I have from testing to find the bottom end of the impact velocity on any bullet I shoot at range. The heavier target bullets are hard and thick at the tip and they will be closed more than the hunting in the 210, annealing the tip or switching to the hunting does buy you some lower end. Once you drop below the thresh hold on them they start opening by the hydraulic pressure popping the tip of or open at the top of the lead then if you have enough juice it will rip large chunks of jacket and thrash like a meat grinder OR tumble.

At what point in Canada do you guys see a change from Shiris size moose to the Alaskan/Yukon size moose?

Hi Big, I'm definitely not a Moose expert, but I believe the transition happens a couple hundred miles west of Yellowknife. My buddy shot a moose on Mackenzie Mtn in western NWT this year and it was the Alaskan variety. Basically, where the swamp and rock give way to the mountains.

 

[Broz]

Hi Jeff. Yes, I think the 210 target VLD was below expansion velocity on a vitals shot. I think the spine shot would have fragmented regardless unless I used something like an Interbond or Accubond, and they wouldn't have expanded on vitals at all either. I read your thread on the 215 and would like to get a box to try out, maybe even the 230s. I have the 210 hunting VLDs, and the 215 and 230 hybrids on order, but they're almost impossible to get here in Canada. Backordered for around a year. Has anyone had stability problems with the 230s out of a 1 in 10 twist (26 in barrel)? Final question, if my target VLDs won't expand at lower velocities, how much more will I get out of the hunting version? Am basically looking no lower than 1500 fps (1000 ft lbs of energy) at 1000m, and that would be stretching it.

Scrubbit, what was your muzzle velocity with the 210 Target? Reading your post surprises me as it reminded me of the elk we took in the 800 yard range with the 210 Hunting VLD's. At 800, and some beyond, we always got complete pass throughs and exit holes over 1 1/4". The MV of my 300 win with 210 HVLD's is 2990 fps.

We have been shooting the 230 OTM Hybrid from my sons 300 win with a 28" barrel and a 1 in 10 twist for a few years now. Load work up and accuracy was easy with H-1000. We have shot numerous elk with them. One as close as 180 yards and always got complete pass throughs with nice large exits. If I was to shoot a moose with a 30 cal and the possibility of a shot past 500 was there the 230 OTM would be my choice. We get 2775 fps with this bullet from a 28".

Here are a few of our results with the 230 OTM from a 300 win.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-230-300-otm-hybrid-terminal-results-80283/

As far as your question of how much lower the hunting 210 will expand than the 210 Target. Well that has so many variables I truly cant say. But I can tell you from my extensive experiences with the 210 Hunting bullet that I got good exits on elk at 1000 with muzzle velocities between 2990 and 3120.

It is a fact that no bullet works flawlessly at all distances and all the time. I have had my share of failures, and been there to watch, then track elk for miles shot with a solid non expanding bullet. The bottom line is every shot is different. Impact velocity, shot angle, meat then bone, no bone, all bone, you name it. If all shots were exactly the same we would have one bullet perfected and all be using it. In the end it is our responsibility to choose the bullet that will work best for us, know how it works and use it to our best advantage. For me that is a very expandable bullet that will work the best at long range. I am a long range hunter and I chose Bergers for their supreme accuracy, higher BC's and heavy offerings per caliber. I will knock on wood here, but since I started using Bergers years ago we have yet to track one animal. Could it happen tomorrow, hell yes, but it hasn't yet and there has been hundreds of kills with them. So we can pick apart anything if we like. Bottom line is none of us like the looks of that bullet that didn't expand. But you were able to put 2 of them in the Bull and you didn't track him. So lets give accuracy and your shooting skill some credit.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Jeff, I would be interested in hearing your theory on this. If it is already posted elsewhere my apologies, could you post the link?

Thanks

I don't know if I have posted it before or not. But the hollow point void in the 215 is much larger than many other hollow points. There are pictures of this on the site here somewhere. It is my personal theory that this tip enters , goes a few inches and blows off leaving a blunt nose with a wide surface area to go on. This now flat nosed bullet of soft lead and thin jacket expands easily. Too much for my taste at 400 yards and less, but it still stoned a bull elk at 300 when placed properly and got 26" of penetration that included passing through the far shoulder. With 3 antelope over 1000 yards nowand the farthest of 1285 yards. the bullet worked very very well. Nice expansion on soft game with a impact velocity down as low as 1665 fps and 1325 lbs of energy. It works for me.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

This is the picture and thread I was looking for. The 230 on top 210 on bottom.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/230-hybrid-target-vs-230-hybrid-otm-82043/index4.html


The 215 Hybrid is very similar. Starting in with a grinding belt at the tip you will remove about .475" of copper tip before you get to the lead. Much different design and proof not all bullets are the same even from the same mfg. This is why I stress "Know your bullet and how to use it" No matter what it says on the box.

Jeff

 

[bigngreen]

Hi Big, I'm definitely not a Moose expert, but I believe the transition happens a couple hundred miles west of Yellowknife. My buddy shot a moose on Mackenzie Mtn in western NWT this year and it was the Alaskan variety. Basically, where the swamp and rock give way to the mountains.

Interesting, always wondered where the change happened, I'll be lucky to hunt moose down here in my life time, used to be thicker than flies but they were the first to go with out new wolf problem. Areas I could park and count a dozen or better moose any day of the week 15 years ago I have not seen a moose in for years!

To add to my earlier comments, it would be interesting to know what happened to the first bullet but my guess would be that it did the same thing as the first bullets but if it had more resistance like heavier muscle it may have ruptured like the other bullet but then tore the jacket apart which can turn it into a parachute and you end up with a few chunks rather than a blow up but it has about the same affect.

This is likely thee best low end data on the 210 Target I've seen, it's great that you brought it for us to learn from and brought it in a way we can learn and discuss!!!

 

[Scrubbit]

Hi Jeff, muzzle velocity was approx 2840 fps. I havn't pushed very hard with this load. I can see why the hybrids may expand better with the flatter and deeper lead nose. I'm definitely going to try them if I can get my hands on some as I single load for long range shooting, so having them fit in the mag is a non issue.

On another note all, my long range rifle is a Rem 700 XCR. Have added a Timney trigger and ATRS brake, and have had it bedded. It consistently shoots about .6-.7 MOA. Is it worth putting a full contour match barrel on it without going with a higher end action? My brother tells me I'm not going to get substantially better accuracy unless I go with a full custom build... Something about a sow's ear to a silk purse... Much as I don't want to admit it, he may be right.

 

[Broz]

Hi Jeff, muzzle velocity was approx 2840 fps. I havn't pushed very hard with this load. I can see why the hybrids may expand better with the flatter and deeper lead nose. I'm definitely going to try them if I can get my hands on some as I single load for long range shooting, so having them fit in the mag is a non issue.

On another note all, my long range rifle is a Rem 700 XCR. Have added a Timney trigger and ATRS brake, and have had it bedded. It consistently shoots about .6-.7 MOA. Is it worth putting a full contour match barrel on it without going with a higher end action? My brother tells me I'm not going to get substantially better accuracy unless I go with a full custom build... Something about a sow's ear to a silk purse... Much as I don't want to admit it, he may be right.

Thank you for that info. I want to run the numbers so I can come up with a lower end velocity for the 210 Targets.

I have seen some XCR's shoot real well especially the first design with the better stocks. I would not rebarrel until you try some different bullets. I would almost guarantee the 215's would group tighter. But that is just my gut feeling.

Is it hard to ship bullets into Canada? I am not sure of the laws and legal end.

Jeff

 

[500mag_guy]

Thats very interesting with the jacket split so you can see how the lead core is. Do you think the way the lead is inside the 230 target that it would expand better then the hybrid in a lung heart shot? Is there a benefit or disadvantage to the way the lead core is designed in the 230 target?

This is the picture and thread I was looking for. The 230 on top 210 on bottom.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/230-hybrid-target-vs-230-hybrid-otm-82043/index4.html


The 215 Hybrid is very similar. Starting in with a grinding belt at the tip you will remove about .475" of copper tip before you get to the lead. Much different design and proof not all bullets are the same even from the same mfg. This is why I stress "Know your bullet and how to use it" No matter what it says on the box.

Jeff

 

[elkaholic]

Does that include the hunting VLDs Elk?

Every Berger I've tested will not expand under 2000' unless it hits something pretty solid!. That's not to say they won't leave a pretty good exit hole because when they don't expand, they make a banana bullet almost everytime which causes the tumbling. Many have seen what a military round will do at times, and we all know that they don't expand.....Rich

 

[Scrubbit]

Thanks for all the feedback from everyon. Am going to work up a Retumbo/215 hybrid load over the winter for the 300 WM.

 

[Scrubbit]

I call him Drybones. My wife says he can't live inside yet as he still smells just a touch, so he'll live in the garage and get bleached every few days. Will mount him along with the bullet that went through his heart once he's certified non-smelly! Got the 215 hybrids in. Crazy long bullets. Can't wait for next year.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I found that Borax worked very well to clean skulls and is not as harsh on them as bleach.

 

[Scrubbit]

Thanks. Will give it a shot.