MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

[Catfur]

5.56 FMJs do more damage than larger FMJs (to a point) at just about any reasonable distance (repeated tests have shown this, even as far back as the 6mm Lee Navy days). UNLESS you spin them up (stabilize them) at ungodly RPMs by firing them out of a fast twist barrel.

At an appropriate twist rate of something like 1-14 or 1-15, a 5.56 FMJ round will tumble wildly in flesh. At 1-7, it will just pencil through most of the time. Of course, Uncle Sam spins those little babies up to twice the RPMs they need to stabilize them, and then doesn't listen when the troops crab about them not doing any damage.

Back in the Vietnam days, the M16 prototypes gained a reputation as unholy killing machines. Later hindsight showed that the first prototypes (provided to special forces) were 1-17 to 1-20 twist barrels, because Armalite was unable to produce the specified twist rate, and they were basically firing bullets that tumbled straight out of the barrel. Of course at the ranges special forces usually operate, nobody noticed that accuracy over any distance would have been crap.

I still say ditch the Hague Conventions (written by a bunch of diplomatic pantywetters) and use expanding bullets when appropriate (IE when armor piercing is not necessary).

 

[Trickymissfit]

A .30-Cal bullet is problematic, at best; First and foremost, d#mned things are HEAVY- won't catch me carrying more than 200-250 rounds in that caliber. My average loadout as a team leader was 600 rounds of 5.56 in Iraq in '06, and you better bet I would use nearly every mag in a firefight. I never carried more than 100 rounds of 7.62NATO, and it felt about the same as 150-200 rounds of 5.56; 7.62x39 is nearly as bad, and metal AK mags can double as anchors when loaded. So I just see that as less ammo in hand, and therefore less potential to kill.

Gary, I think your percentages are a little dated. While those numbers are certainly true for WWI, WWII, and probably also Vietnam, in Iraq, we hardly ever used artillery and CAS, primarily because the country has a VERY dense urban population throughout most of the populated areas, and we really didn't want collateral damage. Every once in awhile, Alibaba would do something stupid out in the sticks, and we could blast him with a 2000-pounder, but those instances only accounted for about 1/4 of our kills. We had to get our hands dirty- a LOT.

So door-kicking became our bread-and-butter. I will admit that with a 5.56NATO M4, I had to "ride my kills;" meaning that I often had to dump half a mag or more into a body to get it good'n'dead. Forget what you see in COD- when the other guy is 10-15ft away from you (like in a bedroom), you don't just shoot him once and call it a day, especially when he's shooting back, and doubly especially when he's hopped up on heroine or meth that he cooked up in what used to be a hospital. The obvious exception to this is .458SOCOM or .50Beowulf. Hit him with one of those from 10 feet away, he won't want to play anymore.

The 6.8 is a nifty caliber for use inside a house. Even suppressed, it generally keeps a higher velocity and hits harder than a 5.56 at less than 10m. Downside is when you step into the street, and need to nail some idiot with an RPD a few blocks away. So then you have 6.5, which is great for distance, but not necessarily a cartridge that I, personally, would want for CQB. The plain fact is that the 5.56 is the lesser evil for right now; poorer performance than 6.8 at close range, poorer performance than 6.5 at distance, but ironically perfect for those 200m-300m shots.

Someday, somebody will invent a super-awesome round that hits hard at close range, AND at 600m. I just hope it's in my lifetime. gun)

my data is from two different papers submitted by the Pentagon, and the U.S. Army War College. Their data was as current as five years ago, but takes in all combat arenas. The same ratios have been confirmed by Russia, Germany, UK, and a few others. There's not much new on this planet when it comes to killing people when you think about it.

By the way I've been involved in house to house stuff more than once or twice. The best thing since sliced bread was the old M79 buck shot round, but it was also it's down fall as it was a single shot weapon.. A grease gun or a Thompson submachine gun were probably just as good, but better due to their magazine content.

I count 17 combat assaults in my book, even though a few others say it was more. A standard load out for a five or six man team was three belts of 7.62x51 on everyman, but the radio man. I carried an extra barrel, and another guy carried the other. The others carried batteries. I also had a bagged M16 with twenty one mags wrapped around it. Everybody hauled the twenty one mag load or more. I also had about ten or twelve M79 HE rounds in my lower left pants pocket. Randy carried about three dozen himself. Also carried a 1911a1 with four mags. Two quarts of water, and three meals. Two extra pairs of socks, and a towl. In my lower right hand pocket were two pairs of hemostats, morphine, a bag of bandages, and a piece of surgical tubing. I've gotten down to a belt and a half a couple times, and down to two full mags several other times. When we went in heavy, we all carried four or five belts, and pulled a drag bag off the chopper. That's enough M60 ammo to get you by a couple hours, or about three late night probs. Roughly 110lb. a man. Two out of three times I rolled out the door we were alone, as the infantry never got the word till we were there. Two or three times they dropped us off in the wrong location, and we didn't know where we were exactly. Then you gotta shoot several WP bursts to plot vectors to figure out your location. Now it's done via GPS!

The drag bag had six meals and four quarts of water. Two cases of 5.56 loaded in M16 mags. Another two or three loose 7.62 belts. Plus hand held flares and more smoke grenades and two more batteries. If there was room we packed in several Claymores as well. The idea of the drag bag came after about the 5th trip, and was simply kicked out by the door gunner as the last guy left the left side of the chopper.

gary

 

[Bastard TwoTwo]

my data is from two different papers submitted by the Pentagon, and the U.S. Army War College. Their data was as current as five years ago, but takes in all combat arenas. The same ratios have been confirmed by Russia, Germany, UK, and a few others. There's not much new on this planet when it comes to killing people when you think about it.

AHHHHH.... See, I can only really testify to what *I* saw, over 3-years (over back-to-back deployments) in North/Central Iraq. And, unfortunately, as I said, that area is EXTREMELY dense in terms of urban population, which meant we couldn't just go droppin' 155's everywhere we went. God we wished we could have... but that's another story.

I humped roughly 100-120lbs, depending on what we were doing; unfortunately, almost half that weight was body armor and water. We did ditch the crappy IBA's for plate carriers a couple months into my first deployment, but didn't ordinarily add more 'boom,' unless we were going out for more than 3 days at a shot, or going someplace like Baqubah (which was the wild f'ng west back in '06).

Occasionally, I carried an extra 100-round belt of 7.62NATO, when I had a M240B MMG team attached to my rifle team, and for a few weeks I did moonlight as a Designated Marksman, and carried 5x 20rnd mags for an SR-25. Either way, not a fan of the extra weight vs the round limit. And I WAS kinda concerned for those of us on this thread who've never been to combat, and may not have understood the concept of combat shooting (obviously not applying to you, gary).

I hate talking to teenagers who play military-themed video games. morons.

WE STILL HAVE THE BUCKSHOT ROUND- IT'S JUST USED IN THE M203 NOW

CATFUR- you'd be surprised how often body armor shows up on the 21st century battlefield, and NOT just on Coalition Forces.... Haj had it more often than he didn't; usually Russian or East German surplus, but it still worked. The Iranians produce their own, which is better than the old Soviet stuff, and YES, despite what you heard on the news, IRGC and Al-Quds were actively operating in Eastern Iraq, and they were not on our side.

 

[Bastard TwoTwo]

Oh, and before I forget- the current generation of the AR platform in service with the US Military doesn't use a 1/7 twist barrel; we now use either a 1/9 (standard M16A4 or M4A2/3) or a 1/10 (SOPMOD Mk12 Mod 0).

Sure, it's not a 1/12 or 1/14, which would tumble the round a lot, BUT, it's pretty accurate out at 500m, and will penetrate body armor without a hiccup.

 

[Trickymissfit]

AHHHHH.... See, I can only really testify to what *I* saw, over 3-years (over back-to-back deployments) in North/Central Iraq. And, unfortunately, as I said, that area is EXTREMELY dense in terms of urban population, which meant we couldn't just go droppin' 155's everywhere we went. God we wished we could have... but that's another story.

I humped roughly 100-120lbs, depending on what we were doing; unfortunately, almost half that weight was body armor and water. We did ditch the crappy IBA's for plate carriers a couple months into my first deployment, but didn't ordinarily add more 'boom,' unless we were going out for more than 3 days at a shot, or going someplace like Baqubah (which was the wild f'ng west back in '06).

Occasionally, I carried an extra 100-round belt of 7.62NATO, when I had a M240B MMG team attached to my rifle team, and for a few weeks I did moonlight as a Designated Marksman, and carried 5x 20rnd mags for an SR-25. Either way, not a fan of the extra weight vs the round limit. And I WAS kinda concerned for those of us on this thread who've never been to combat, and may not have understood the concept of combat shooting (obviously not applying to you, gary).

I hate talking to teenagers who play military-themed video games. morons.

WE STILL HAVE THE BUCKSHOT ROUND- IT'S JUST USED IN THE M203 NOW

CATFUR- you'd be surprised how often body armor shows up on the 21st century battlefield, and NOT just on Coalition Forces.... Haj had it more often than he didn't; usually Russian or East German surplus, but it still worked. The Iranians produce their own, which is better than the old Soviet stuff, and YES, despite what you heard on the news, IRGC and Al-Quds were actively operating in Eastern Iraq, and they were not on our side.

Actually I was not in an infantry outfit, but was part of the first shirts recon team that was tasked with the job of scouting out mountain tops for arty deployments. Been nice if we were attached to an infantry brigade, but we were independent, and operated with everybody. The grand scheme of the advance party is to scout the area out, plus make sure it can be used. Sometimes we were there two hours without anything happening. When that happened (and the hill was usable) we would start the move. About three hours later we were shooting.

When I hit country, and had got settled in after a couple weeks a guy walked up to and put an M60 in my hands (this would be right around 1/1/68), three new barrels, two complete cleaning kits with tools, a case of LSA, a bag full of springs and other spare parts, and a box of Home Made cigars. Patted me on the *** and said "your new, and I'm outta here!" I carried that 28lb. hog all thru Tet, and finally got rid of it in late April. While this was going on the first shirt had all of us newbies got and zero in our rifles (M16's), and of course I had to also shoot the hog. We found that I shot the hog better than anybody did in the company (bad sign there alone), but still was unfamiliar with it. He had a couple guys school me on it everyday. I learned to virtually dismantle it piece by piece, and practiced changing hot barrels so often that I could do it blind folded. He also hooked up a couple guys from the 198th infantry with me to teach me how to use the gun instead of just shooting it. In April I figured I was done with it, but that's when we started to move into ops after Tet. We we did an OP, I was promptly handed that same hog again. Around the first of May I did my first insertion out by Hau Duc. Was scared to death, but wasn't all that bad. After three days or so we were probed, and rocketed. Then it was a daily thing. They must have ran out of mortar rounds after two long weeks of the stuff, so I went out on the Laotian border. Rough place! That was my first meeting with S.F., and saw SOG and a lot of LRRP's roll thru that little place (it was somekind of a SF forward detachment that took orders directly from a C-Team). We eventually lost the mountain top due to lack of warm bodies. Must have shot six thousand rounds of 7.62 ball myself. Was up there about a month, and was probed nightly. Don't remember rockets, but we caught at least a hundred 82mm rounds everyday. Then it was a leap frog affair up and down the border for another sixty days. Finally reunited with the rest of the guys to get healthy again (2/3rds of us had walking pneumonia, and there were always eight or ten guys recovering from wounds). They just were not very nice out there! Been close enough to look into the Ashau Valley, and maybe twenty minutes north of Kam Duc. The next crazy stunt for me was reopening the Tam Key Road ( nobody had been on it for 18 months). After about three klicks I decided I was better off on foot, and walked! After another five klicks I climbed on the back of an ACAV, and rode with them into the hook. Then I walked again. The ACAV ran over a 155mm command detonated mine! (just had a real bad feeling about that place). Got into A102 about nine that night in a hard rain (rode the last five or six miles on the top of an M48). I was exhausted. The tracks spent the night, and left at first light. Woke to discover I was sitting about 2,000 yards below this huge mastiff. That was the Hiep Duc Ridge Line. A new adventure that just wouldn't go away quietly. The north end was as hot as the Ashau, and was glad we were at the south end. Later the south end would evolve into one of the hottest spots RVN had ever seen. That place became my last base camp that we operated out of, and was also the most interesting.

All of my 15 months wasn't bad, and actually some of it was fun. I shook Bob Hope's hand twice and met him a third time. (Bob Hope is my all time hero). But only saw the show once! Been drunk with Marines, Army, and even some Navy guys. Made a zillion friends, and bagged a few of them. I wouldn't trade it for anything, but also wouldn't think about doing it again.
glt

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Oh, and before I forget- the current generation of the AR platform in service with the US Military doesn't use a 1/7 twist barrel; we now use either a 1/9 (standard M16A4 or M4A2/3) or a 1/10 (SOPMOD Mk12 Mod 0).

Sure, it's not a 1/12 or 1/14, which would tumble the round a lot, BUT, it's pretty accurate out at 500m, and will penetrate body armor without a hiccup.

Where are you stationed?

 

[Trickymissfit]

Oh, and before I forget- the current generation of the AR platform in service with the US Military doesn't use a 1/7 twist barrel; we now use either a 1/9 (standard M16A4 or M4A2/3) or a 1/10 (SOPMOD Mk12 Mod 0).

Sure, it's not a 1/12 or 1/14, which would tumble the round a lot, BUT, it's pretty accurate out at 500m, and will penetrate body armor without a hiccup.

And I forgot to "welcome you home brother!"

So, knowing that nobody else probably did; please allow me to welcome you home
gary

 

[Bastard TwoTwo]

Currently, I'm out- was injured too many times. The only unit I was assigned to that I can talk about was 2/27IN, part of 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Light Infantry Division. I also did a lot of time at Ft. Bragg, back before they changed all the ODA numbers, lol. Now they're using 4-digit team numbers, and it's a giant goat-F*** trying to figure out who's-who.

Anyway, gary, you're about half-right. When we got back to our duty station after deployments, they had big signs on the sides of the buses, so all the cars driving down the highway could see, and they all beeped and waved and shouted to us. Then when we got in to the base, there was the Welcome Home Ceremony where all the families and friends showed up. It was really emotional. Flying home to NY was another matter. Did a layover in San Fran on the way. Sat in a coffee shop on the concourse for 3 1/2 hours- the waiters kept walking right by me, they'd look the other way and pretend I didn't exist (I was in uniform). Finally got up and stood in line for McDonald's. The couple in front of me noticed I was behind them, got real fidgitty, and pulled their kid in tight as they pressed into the people in front of them. Like I was gonna just hall off and eat their kid or something.

When I finally made it home is when I got my "hero's welcome." 'Nam vets turned out, there was my family, my church, my friends from high school. But I'll never forget San Francisco.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Currently, I'm out- was injured too many times. The only unit I was assigned to that I can talk about was 2/27IN, part of 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Light Infantry Division. I also did a lot of time at Ft. Bragg, back before they changed all the ODA numbers, lol. Now they're using 4-digit team numbers, and it's a giant goat-F*** trying to figure out who's-who.

Anyway, gary, you're about half-right. When we got back to our duty station after deployments, they had big signs on the sides of the buses, so all the cars driving down the highway could see, and they all beeped and waved and shouted to us. Then when we got in to the base, there was the Welcome Home Ceremony where all the families and friends showed up. It was really emotional. Flying home to NY was another matter. Did a layover in San Fran on the way. Sat in a coffee shop on the concourse for 3 1/2 hours- the waiters kept walking right by me, they'd look the other way and pretend I didn't exist (I was in uniform). Finally got up and stood in line for McDonald's. The couple in front of me noticed I was behind them, got real fidgitty, and pulled their kid in tight as they pressed into the people in front of them. Like I was gonna just hall off and eat their kid or something.

When I finally made it home is when I got my "hero's welcome." 'Nam vets turned out, there was my family, my church, my friends from high school. But I'll never forget San Francisco.

LOL, I live in NY. I also spent a lot of time in Bragg so did quite a few other members here. I wonder why they switch AD teams to 4 digit designation that was the only was to differentiate guard from AD, not that it mattered.

 

[Bastard TwoTwo]

Believe it or not, that wasn't the only reason. In late '06, they added an additional 4th Battalion to every SF Group, which necessitated a new numbering system. I don't know how long they'll keep it that way before returning to the 3 Battalion format, if they ever return to it. It really was a headache trying to bridge the gap; one week the team number is (for instance) 095, and the next week it's 1054. Completely rearranged everything! Hated it.

For those uninitiated who may read this, the original Special Forces Team number format worked like this:

1, 3, 5, 7, and 0 (for 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 10th Groups) followed by

0-3 (A,B,C/1st Bn), 4-6 (A,B,C/2nd Bn), 7-9 (A,B,C/3rd Bn) followed by


0-9, designating the specific team within the previously established Company, Battalion, and Group.

So 3rd Team, B Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Group is/was: ODA 153

 

[Trickymissfit]

Currently, I'm out- was injured too many times. The only unit I was assigned to that I can talk about was 2/27IN, part of 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Light Infantry Division. I also did a lot of time at Ft. Bragg, back before they changed all the ODA numbers, lol. Now they're using 4-digit team numbers, and it's a giant goat-F*** trying to figure out who's-who.

Anyway, gary, you're about half-right. When we got back to our duty station after deployments, they had big signs on the sides of the buses, so all the cars driving down the highway could see, and they all beeped and waved and shouted to us. Then when we got in to the base, there was the Welcome Home Ceremony where all the families and friends showed up. It was really emotional. Flying home to NY was another matter. Did a layover in San Fran on the way. Sat in a coffee shop on the concourse for 3 1/2 hours- the waiters kept walking right by me, they'd look the other way and pretend I didn't exist (I was in uniform). Finally got up and stood in line for McDonald's. The couple in front of me noticed I was behind them, got real fidgitty, and pulled their kid in tight as they pressed into the people in front of them. Like I was gonna just hall off and eat their kid or something.

When I finally made it home is when I got my "hero's welcome." 'Nam vets turned out, there was my family, my church, my friends from high school. But I'll never forget San Francisco.

You are part of an elite group known as "Combat Vets". Never forget where you came from. I recommend you joining the VFW. Your going to be welcomed with open arms.

I came home thru Ft Lewis, and ended up having to spend two extra days there because of some B.S. rule that you had to have dress greens on to travel. I had a 44" chest and a 29" waist. They had nothing that came close to fitting me (as if I cared). So I ended up with a set of tailor made greens to wear once! Remember going thru a formation, and they guy told me to get a hair cut. I told him to cut my hair himself (I'd had three haircuts in the last seven days!). They guy that told me to get a hair cut had nothing but the National defense Ribbon, and I had zero respect for his ***. But that was also an omen that I failed to pick up on. I know now what my first platoon sargent told me to expect.

When I got on the airplane out of Seattle (red eye), no one would set next to me. Fine with me, as I pretty much had the whole side to myself. Then an old man asked if he could set next to me? I welcomed him. Landing at OHara in Chicago, I had to go from one end to the other. All kinds of baggage handlers and carts, but I wasn't good enough to use one. The said my flight was booked up (even though I had a ticket). So I ended up hauling everything about half way back. Got a flight about eight hours later to Indy. I should have just hopped on a bus as it was a three hour drive. Folks were cold when I got back home, and I divorced most of my friends while picking up new ones. A year or so later the VFW and Legion told us we were not welcome there! Seems the WWII guys didn't think much of us, even though the color of our blood was the same as theirs. Ten years later they were begging us to join them, and I sorta ignored them. Ten years ago a couple Marines, and some Army guys approached me about joining. One said he'd pay my first years dues if I joined. So I got my DD-214 together and filled out an application fully expecting the usual treatment. Two weeks later I got an I.D. card in the mail, but never entered the local post. When it came time to renew my membership I mulled around about it, but my girl friend drug me over there. I went inside and told them what I wanted to do, and I was welcomed to a table of Vietnam vets. Asked who and where I came from, and a couple guys questioned me as I look very young for my age (I don't blame them). I told them I was right out of I-Corps, and then the conversation just took off. Turned out that one of the guys at the table and I shared the same exact A.O., and we had done a few OP's together. Later a Marine and I found we'd chewed the same turf many times over. I'm now the Post Surgeon, and hope to be Junior Vice next month. Finally starting my trip thru the chairs after two stints at the Surgeon position. But on the otherhand, I'm really not wanting to leave that position this very minute. I have a couple projects going on that will need someone to follow thru on them.

Looking back at my 14 months and three weeks in the game, I will never forgive this country for what they did to us. And I've openly told them about how I feel about it. Being there was better than being at home for the next twenty odd years. At least you knew who your enemies were, and who your friends are. The WWII vets were the problem, and they should have paved the way for the Korean War Vets, and they snubbed them. Then they did the samething with the Vietnam folks. In 1990 we vowed that they were not going to get by doing this again, and we kinda stepped to the front. Now those guys are doing the same for your group (we're there, but there's only a third of us left)

Welcome Home Brother
gary

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

You are part of an elite group known as "Combat Vets". Never forget where you came from. I recommend you joining the VFW. Your going to be welcomed with open arms.

I came home thru Ft Lewis, and ended up having to spend two extra days there because of some B.S. rule that you had to have dress greens on to travel. I had a 44" chest and a 29" waist. They had nothing that came close to fitting me (as if I cared). So I ended up with a set of tailor made greens to wear once! Remember going thru a formation, and they guy told me to get a hair cut. I told him to cut my hair himself (I'd had three haircuts in the last seven days!). They guy that told me to get a hair cut had nothing but the National defense Ribbon, and I had zero respect for his ***. But that was also an omen that I failed to pick up on. I know now what my first platoon sargent told me to expect.

When I got on the airplane out of Seattle (red eye), no one would set next to me. Fine with me, as I pretty much had the whole side to myself. Then an old man asked if he could set next to me? I welcomed him. Landing at OHara in Chicago, I had to go from one end to the other. All kinds of baggage handlers and carts, but I wasn't good enough to use one. The said my flight was booked up (even though I had a ticket). So I ended up hauling everything about half way back. Got a flight about eight hours later to Indy. I should have just hopped on a bus as it was a three hour drive. Folks were cold when I got back home, and I divorced most of my friends while picking up new ones. A year or so later the VFW and Legion told us we were not welcome there! Seems the WWII guys didn't think much of us, even though the color of our blood was the same as theirs. Ten years later they were begging us to join them, and I sorta ignored them. Ten years ago a couple Marines, and some Army guys approached me about joining. One said he'd pay my first years dues if I joined. So I got my DD-214 together and filled out an application fully expecting the usual treatment. Two weeks later I got an I.D. card in the mail, but never entered the local post. When it came time to renew my membership I mulled around about it, but my girl friend drug me over there. I went inside and told them what I wanted to do, and I was welcomed to a table of Vietnam vets. Asked who and where I came from, and a couple guys questioned me as I look very young for my age (I don't blame them). I told them I was right out of I-Corps, and then the conversation just took off. Turned out that one of the guys at the table and I shared the same exact A.O., and we had done a few OP's together. Later a Marine and I found we'd chewed the same turf many times over. I'm now the Post Surgeon, and hope to be Junior Vice next month. Finally starting my trip thru the chairs after two stints at the Surgeon position. But on the otherhand, I'm really not wanting to leave that position this very minute. I have a couple projects going on that will need someone to follow thru on them.

Looking back at my 14 months and three weeks in the game, I will never forgive this country for what they did to us. And I've openly told them about how I feel about it. Being there was better than being at home for the next twenty odd years. At least you knew who your enemies were, and who your friends are. The WWII vets were the problem, and they should have paved the way for the Korean War Vets, and they snubbed them. Then they did the samething with the Vietnam folks. In 1990 we vowed that they were not going to get by doing this again, and we kinda stepped to the front. Now those guys are doing the same for your group (we're there, but there's only a third of us left)

Welcome Home Brother
gary

Gary

I have shook the hands of more Nam vets than any other era when I was in the service. You guys made us feel welcome over and over again. Thank you! Both my uncles served in your war, one with 5th group the other with the air force spreading agent orange, they died 3 years ago with in 6 month of each other.

I guess what I am saying is thank you!

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Believe it or not, that wasn't the only reason. In late '06, they added an additional 4th Battalion to every SF Group, which necessitated a new numbering system. I don't know how long they'll keep it that way before returning to the 3 Battalion format, if they ever return to it. It really was a headache trying to bridge the gap; one week the team number is (for instance) 095, and the next week it's 1054. Completely rearranged everything! Hated it.

For those uninitiated who may read this, the original Special Forces Team number format worked like this:

1, 3, 5, 7, and 0 (for 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 10th Groups) followed by

0-3 (A,B,C/1st Bn), 4-6 (A,B,C/2nd Bn), 7-9 (A,B,C/3rd Bn) followed by


0-9, designating the specific team within the previously established Company, Battalion, and Group.

So 3rd Team, B Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Group is/was: ODA 153

Well I am south of Rochester, thank you for posting I was a little skeptical of your first few post but now I get where your twist rate info came from. Different pool of money and more open thinkers.

 

[Bastard TwoTwo]

Well I am south of Rochester, thank you for posting I was a little skeptical of your first few post but now I get where your twist rate info came from. Different pool of money and more open thinkers.

Yeah, that's a part of it- for instance, the SOPMOD Mk18 MOD 0 was developed by Crane Division (Navy) for use by Special Ops units throughout the military (they don't just cater to SEALs is what I'm getting at). It's supposed to kinda bridge the gap between the M4/SOPMOD Mk1 and the M14/Mk14 DMR. It's basically an M4 with an AR15 upper- the barrel is 16". It was found during development by Crane that in the 16" barrel, a 1/10 twist is what they consider optimal balance between mid-distance accuracy (~500m) and terminal effect (i.e., the probability of tumble, bounce, etc.).

I also do know that the 1/7 twist rate of the XM16/M16/M16A1 was dropped sometime ago (in the '90's?) in favor of a 1/9. I did use an M61A2, which had been re-barreled at least once I should add, that had a 1/9 (it was engraved right on the barrel). What I don't know is whether that was the original twist rate of the M16A2, or if that barrel was added later as an upgrade, which the military does quite often, since it's cheaper than buying a whole new weapon system. I am quite positive that the 'A3 had a 1/9, and I know that the 'A4 I qualified with at Benning was a 1/9.

This is all, of course, presuming I haven't lost my marbles. These things happen.