Military Losing the Sniper War Against Russia?

[LRNut]

I brought up the wind hoping some of you might know/have used the latest techniques used by military snipers. Is it still mirage, a laser based system, or something else?

 

[LRNut]

There comes a point that anything that will consistently hit at those distances cannot be hand held. So I would put our snipers skills and training against any ones. also if they are so good, why place a sniper close and in harms way and have two back ups in case he gets in trouble. the whole reason for a sniper, to go unnoticed and to be able to hit without being in range of another shooter.

When a hand held Laser is developed, then I might believe it. besides, it is an individual skill, not something that belongs to any country. It is easy to say what you can do, but much harder to prove it.

J E CUSTOM

I agree, but even if we develop a laser based anemometer, at 4600 yards the TOF will render any shot a bit of a Hail Mary. Hell, you can make that argument at well under half that range.

 

[Bravo 4]

I brought up the wind hoping some of you might know/have used the latest techniques used by military snipers. Is it still mirage, a laser based system, or something else?

Heard rumblings about such devices from reliable sources, but for now it's the good old fashioned way like everyone else on the planet...SWAG the crap out of it!
We teach them to use every indicator available to read the wind.
Laser wind reading devices will be a cool piece of kit providing it is small and portable enough, and very reliable. Either way students will learn 'the hard way', just like everything else.

 

[John Klingenberg]

How about the M82 replaced the M107. Effective 1969yds/1800 m that more than a Kentucky mile as they to say about the Flintlocks.

The 107 isn't the best choice for accuracy and you're certainly not going to lug one around very far. Our EOD bought some for standoff detonation. They had a hell of a time hitting IEDs at any safe distance so they're gathering dust in arms rooms still. The Raufoss rounds were cool, and work, but you have a better chance hitting it with a football bat.

 

[John Klingenberg]

I brought up the wind hoping some of you might know/have used the latest techniques used by military snipers. Is it still mirage, a laser based system, or something else?

DARPA has some according to public releases. Trijicon has the Ventus available but I think it only works to 500 yards, just when wind starts to matter. I like the name though. I think I'll name one of my rifles after it.

 

[LRNut]

DARPA has some according to public releases. Trijicon has the Ventus available but I think it only works to 500 yards, just when wind starts to matter. I like the name though. I think I'll name one of my rifles after it.

Yes, I honestly can't remember the last time I missed a wind call at 500, but knowing the wind to 500 is going to be a huge advantage. From what I understand, the Ventus will have an option to extrapolate the wind solution beyond 500.

I have a place in Colorado that has a walk in vault, reloading room, and concrete patio off the reloading room. I can shoot as far as I want and shoot whenever I think the wind has changed. One thing I have learned there is a wind meter is almost useless - or rather should I say, if it says 4 mph, from the left, double it. The reason is clear: there is a slight valley running left to right that serves as a wind funnel. That valley is 250 to 550 yards away. Being able to see that the wind speed is much higher in that valley would be huge. Experience teaches that, of course, and mirage will confirm it.

Another thing: if the wind is generally consistent at each range (it will measure 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 yard wind speeds and directions) it is probably safe to assume the wind is no different at 600, 700, or even farther if the terrain is consistent. If the wind is changing/gusting more than 2 mph within your TOF, probably best to get closer.

I use mirage for wind direction, but sometimes it is difficult to see. In that case, I use a little wind flag on a pair of shock corded shooting sticks. This is simple but really worthwhile. Trees and branches blowing are good for estimating speed, but not direction. Knowing the direction and speed out to 500 is going to be huge.

I am going to buy a Ventus when it becomes available at the end of the year.

 

[J E Custom]

Another good way to read slight breezes is to read mirage at different distances.

Not very scientific, but it is better than guessing.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Bravo 4]

Yes, I honestly can't remember the last time I missed a wind call at 500, but knowing the wind to 500 is going to be a huge advantage. From what I understand, the Ventus will have an option to extrapolate the wind solution beyond 500.

I have a place in Colorado that has a walk in vault, reloading room, and concrete patio off the reloading room. I can shoot as far as I want and shoot whenever I think the wind has changed. One thing I have learned there is a wind meter is almost useless - or rather should I say, if it says 4 mph, from the left, double it. The reason is clear: there is a slight valley running left to right that serves as a wind funnel. That valley is 250 to 550 yards away. Being able to see that the wind speed is much higher in that valley would be huge. Experience teaches that, of course, and mirage will confirm it.

Another thing: if the wind is generally consistent at each range (it will measure 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 yard wind speeds and directions) it is probably safe to assume the wind is no different at 600, 700, or even farther if the terrain is consistent. If the wind is changing/gusting more than 2 mph within your TOF, probably best to get closer.

I use mirage for wind direction, but sometimes it is difficult to see. In that case, I use a little wind flag on a pair of shock corded shooting sticks. This is simple but really worthwhile. Trees and branches blowing are good for estimating speed, but not direction. Knowing the direction and speed out to 500 is going to be huge.

I am going to buy a Ventus when it becomes available at the end of the year.

I would not assume the wind is the same at all distances, even at moderate ranges. One of the main ranges we use is really a giant open impact area for artillery, mortars, tow missiles, aircraft, etc. From our firing position it is a slight grade down for maybe 200 meters, then pretty flat for several thousand meters. On most days the wind at our firing position will be pretty much in your face (maybe 11 or 1 o'clock), then 100 out it will be moving either L-R or R-L, then about 800-900 it may be the exact opposite. It may shift at random times during the day. The wind reading out to 500 will only tell me what to hold/dial out to 500, maybe a little further. Makes for an interesting time on qual days, that can be out to 1200m. You could have several different winds (direction & speed) to contend with.

Sounds like you have my dream home!

 

[LRNut]

Bravo4:

I remember shooting at Ft Riley; if you had the leeward position next to the berm on the 400 yard range and the wind was blowing hard you could actually get a very slight drift in the opposite direction.

Yea, my Colorado place is great, but one thing I have learned: if you shoot at the same location day in and day out you tend to "learn" the little nuances specific to that place over time. In AZ I have to shoot in the desert, so I have three different areas I shoot, at ranges from 700 to 1300 yards (not really interested in ranges past 1300).

One concern with the Ventus is zapping the wind and then not shooting fast enough. My current technique is to use my NF side parallax to focus on mirage and when I get what I think is the prevailing condition, I spin to focus and shoot.

Well, time will tell - when it is available, I am buying. Hell, it would be a great training tool just to be a better wind reader.

 

[dfanonymous]

The 107 isn't the best choice for accuracy and you're certainly not going to lug one around very far. Our EOD bought some for standoff detonation. They had a hell of a time hitting IEDs at any safe distance so they're gathering dust in arms rooms still. The Raufoss rounds were cool, and work, but you have a better chance hitting it with a football bat.

Said process is called smutting. Fun fact.

 

[John Klingenberg]

I would not assume the wind is the same at all distances, even at moderate ranges. One of the main ranges we use is really a giant open impact area for artillery, mortars, tow missiles, aircraft, etc. From our firing position it is a slight grade down for maybe 200 meters, then pretty flat for several thousand meters. On most days the wind at our firing position will be pretty much in your face (maybe 11 or 1 o'clock), then 100 out it will be moving either L-R or R-L, then about 800-900 it may be the exact opposite. It may shift at random times during the day. The wind reading out to 500 will only tell me what to hold/dial out to 500, maybe a little further. Makes for an interesting time on qual days, that can be out to 1200m. You could have several different winds (direction & speed) to contend with.

Sounds like you have my dream home!

Sounds exactly like the range at Ft Dix...only thing good about that place was Penny's Tai Restaurant. Fiery hot everything, even the white rice was hot.

 

[Riflehunter1776]

I personally don,t think we are losing anything to the Russians except the BS title. they have always been a 1 up country and everything has to be bigger and better than anyone else has.

J E CUSTOM

not always. Case in point, our brand new F-35, the multirole aircraft that is supposed to replace every other western airframe.
Back in the 90's Lockheed bailed out Yakolev, and "bought" the full design plans of the new Yak-141 VTOL. That design was improved on over the years, and became the basis of our new top secret wonder weapon, the F-35b. So it would be a mistake to underestimate their potential and classify them as big mouth bull$%^##ers.

The Russians have some very capable designers, and a dedicated military, but what they do not have is the unlimited funding we have access to. As a result they focus on many low-cost, high reward aspects of military technology - electronic warfare, sniping, etc, instead of cranking out vast fleets of hardware which their small economy can not afford.

 

[Eagel Builder]

Huh? They are basically the same rifle. Not exactly a precision weapon, especially with our ammo. We have a target that is 2000 meters out we hit all the time. However it's a M939 5 ton 6x6 truck at a 1/2 profile.

M107 50 BMG and M82 is 416 Barrett same case smaller bullet. These can hand carried not on a vehicle.

 

[Bravo 4]

M107 50 BMG and M82 is 416 Barrett same case smaller bullet. These can hand carried not on a vehicle.

The M82 is also in .50 BMG, the M107 is a variant of the M82.