Microlon Gun Juice Report

[Mikecr]

Mark, I'm referring to your difficulty in getting a bore back to baseline(clean to the metal, and lapping crosshatch). It should take no more than an hour's work with relatively mild agents to get it done.
But as you're seeing, once a bore get's out of hand, it can be nearly impossible to restore. Some bores get to a point that restoration changes baseline.

The KG implies polishing and I would be nervous about that. The very last thing anyone should do is polish a bore, as this INCREASES copper fouling, and then it must be re-lapped as an aftermarket barrelmaker does, to get back to baseline.
KG might be okay, be I use Tubb's FF as I know it's safe.

The GJ sounds to me like suspended HBN.
If it is then HBN coating of bullets might better maintain the gains of GJ.
IMO You should never have to shoot a gun before USING it. And I would certainly never store a gun with a dirty bore for any extended length of time.
But that's just me..

I think all this group shooting obsession has people content with sighters, and first shot misses..
When I pull a gun out, it is better than new(cuz I always leave it that way), and I know exactly what it will do -first shot. Don't matter if it's a week, or three years down the road. It is very satisfying (to this hunter) to smack that mark with the -first -cold -clean barrel shot.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mark, I'm referring to your difficulty in getting a bore back to baseline(clean to the metal, and lapping crosshatch). It should take no more than an hour's work with relatively mild agents to get it done.
But as you're seeing, once a bore get's out of hand, it can be nearly impossible to restore. Some bores get to a point that restoration changes baseline.

The KG implies polishing and I would be nervous about that. The very last thing anyone should do is polish a bore, as this INCREASES copper fouling, and then it must be re-lapped as an aftermarket barrelmaker does, to get back to baseline.
KG might be okay, be I use Tubb's FF as I know it's safe.

The GJ sounds to me like suspended HBN.
If it is then HBN coating of bullets might better maintain the gains of GJ.
IMO You should never have to shoot a gun before USING it. And I would certainly never store a gun with a dirty bore for any extended length of time.
But that's just me..

I think all this group shooting obsession has people content with sighters, and first shot misses..
When I pull a gun out, it is better than new(cuz I always leave it that way), and I know exactly what it will do -first shot. Don't matter if it's a week, or three years down the road. It is very satisfying (to this hunter) to smack that mark with the -first -cold -clean barrel shot.

Mike, I agree in that I would never polish or fire lap a lapped custom barrel. But with some rough factory bores a product like KG2 *might* be helpful. It's true, there's not much info on KG2, but it is supposed to be less abrassive than Tubbs. In the case of a bad fouling rough bore, I dont think there's much of a risk in using it.

If you have a rifle that shoots the same POI first shot after a thorough claening, as follow on shots, that's great. My rifles don't do that. Their POI shifts until they get a few foulers through them. I suspect this is due the characeristics of the bore changing from bare metal to copper and/or carbon layers being laid down. It's not really a matter shooting groups, it's a matter of the POI shifting. Once fouled, cold bore shots should be on the money, but a clean bore shot in my rifles doesn't track the same as fouled bore shots. If a cold bore shot from a fouled bore lands off maark, it's probably related to a bedding issue.

 

[Mysticplayer]

Based on some positive comments from the person selling the product, I bought some to test.

I treated the 223 barrel that I used to shoot out to a mile. I had lots of chronie data and obviously drop info.

I followed the instructions, cleaned the bore to bare metal and ran wet patches inbetween firing.

I used the same ammo as my target shooting loads. I chronied before I started the treatment and all data was collected within 45mins of start.

When the first bullet was fired through the wet bore, the velocity plummeted. Orig untreated was 2825fps average. This first shot dropped to 2650fps....YIKES.

I continued the one shot, wet patch treatment for 16rds. The velocity peak at just over 2700fps at rd 12 and never went any higher.

Mortified, I grabbed my reg. cleaning stuff and went at the barrel. Even when the patches were lilly white, no go. Velocity stayed right around 2700fps.

Figured it would get better after some use. Shot a few hundred rds at LR. I needed more elevation at all ranges and even after all this shooting, it never changed.

I never bothered to put over a chronie again because the answer wasn't going to change. The bore was now substantially SLOWER and there wasn't much I could do to change this.

The barrel shot with the same accuracy as before treating and the loads used were almost identical. Figuring the 'reduced' bore friction would allow me to add more powder to get back my velocity proved fruitless - pressure signs occured at the same powder levels as before treating.

The Barrel was a Select Pac Nor 28" long. All components were identical throughout the testing - bullets were uncoated Hornady Amax. Copper fouling was never an issue before treating so I can't comment on reduced fouling after.

In frustration, I sold off the barrel and gave away the GJ.

The one thing that this product seems to be accurate on is its tenacious ability to cling to the bore. I could not get it out and restore my velocity.

I did use more to see if additional applications would improve things and nothing changed.

YMMV.

Jerry

PS I have also shot lots of moly bullets and this coating can have its advantages in some application. I don't shoot them anymore as I have switched over the lapped match barrels.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

That is an interesting report Jerry. The only one I have read the velociteis dropped. Both my barrels are shooting quite well in accuracy and velocity. I dont know of anyone geting 3500 fps with 110 AB's in a 26" 25-06. This is using RL17, but still very good velocities.

Your experience is very puzzling.

 

[Eaglet]

Your experience is very puzzling.

... And scarry!!!

 

[Pdvdh]

... And scarry!!!

The scarry part just keeps us alert and on our toes.

The positive part is once the bore is coated then it's coated for a good long while... lightbulb All of my bores are now treated with the stuff -> long lasting = corrosion protection. None of my 284 and larger caliber rifle barrels lost velocity. A 300 Win Mag gained about 50 fps, and I had to reduce my powder charge accordingly to bring it back into the sweet spot. So I haven't experienced a loss in velocity. It is possible powder charges may have to be reduced after GJ treatment in order to tweak MV back to the sweet zone.

I'm learning that I do have one bore that wants to copper foul a bit inspite of the Gun Juice treatment - albeit less than prior to GJ treatment. So GJ won't eliminate copper fouling in all bores with the tendency to copper foul, but it will reduce fouling.

I just purchased an AR-15 5.56mm with a chrome-line bore but don't plan to Gun Juice treat that bore. It's intended to be used like a high pressure fire hose. As long as it makes a lot of noise and the bullets come out the barrel reliably, that's good enough for me - fouled bore or not.

As has been mentioned, proper GJ treatment is labor intensive. The manufacturer's instructions are less than crystal clear that the bore should be stripped of all powder, carbon, and copper fouling prior to each application of GJ and before fire setting the GJ to the bore. So for a stainless barrel, where 20 treatments and firings are recommended, this means obtaining a squeakly clean bore for "each clean the bore to the bone & shoot once" repetitions.

The repetitive cleanings will cause a person to learn a bit about the most effective copper removing bore cleaners on the market. I ended up settling on KG1 (carbon remover) and KG12 (copper remover) products as better than any other product I've used for rapid carbon and copper removal. Non-ammonia based. They kick butt. However if you have a bore that stubbornly retains copper - then Wipeout with or without the accelerator might be the best way to go. Due to the longer dwell time with Wipeout, just plan on extending the GJ treatment process out over a longer period of days. By about the ~6-8th GJ application and fire-setting down the bore, I believe the ease of cleaning carbon, powder, and copper from the bore will be apparent.

I'm not saying GJ is God's gift to LRH. I believe it will extend the number of rounds down the bore before accuracy deteriorates and I believe it will add to the corrosion resistance of a fouled bore. I don't know if it will extend throat life. Someone would have to pay me to devote the time and resources necessary to demonstrate that type of a claim.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

... And scarry!!!

Awww, C'mon Eaglet... what've ya got loose? A $600 barrel?

Seriously, I'm not scared at all. I'm not sure what happened to Mysticplayer's barrel, but I just don't see how GJ will reduce velociteis if it's apllied correctly. I wonder if an over pressure from a wet barrel might have altered the bore? Something is just not adding up.

Anyway, I have no reservations about continuing to use it.

 

[jmden]

Very interesting report, Jerry. Sounds very thorough and application sounds correct. Interesting... I wonder if there is a better/different effect for factory barrels? Just grasping at ideas to try and figure that one out.

 

[jmden]

"As has been mentioned, proper GJ treatment is labor intensive. The manufacturer's instructions are less than crystal clear that the bore should be stripped of all powder, carbon, and copper fouling prior to each application of GJ and before fire setting the GJ to the bore. So for a stainless barrel, where 20 treatments and firings are recommended, this means obtaining a squeakly clean bore for "each clean the bore to the bone & shoot once" repetitions. "

"The repetitive cleanings will cause a person to learn a bit about the most effective copper removing bore cleaners on the market."

"I'm not saying GJ is God's gift to LRH."

Consistent with my experience...

 

[Eaglet]

Awww, C'mon Eaglet... what've ya got loose? A $600 barrel?

Good to see you've got good sence of humor.
I did get a laugh out of that one!

I wonder if there is a better/different effect for factory barrels? Just grasping at ideas to try and figure that one out.

That's a good question!

 

[B23]

Has anyone talked with any of the barrel makers as to their opinion on Gun Juice. Curious if any of them have tested it and what their thoughts are.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

That's a good question!

Mysticplayer's barrel was a Pacnor and my barrels were Remingtons. There's maybe a dozen members that have used GJ on their barrels, mostly custum ones, and this is the only report I know of where velocity dropped and it went down on the first shot. That's got me scratching my head.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Has anyone talked with any of the barrel makers as to their opinion on Gun Juice. Curious if any of them have tested it and what their thoughts are.

I doubt that they would take the time, trouble and expense to do that, and let's face it... endorsing a product that would lead to a reduction of sales wouldn't be in their interest. I read on Lilja's site where he doesn't think much of bore treatments nor dry lubricants. Not sure why, because I know that petrolium based lubricants attract dirt and dirt collects moisture.

And barrel makers like the rest of us have their own opinions, including on break-in and cleaning and they dont all agree.

What would be interesting is if an independant party did some testing on a few sets of barrels, checked velocities, and cut the barrels in half after a couple of thousnd rounds to compare treated vs non treat barrels.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I doubt that they would take the time, trouble and expense to do that, and let's face it... endorsing a product that would lead to a reduction of sales wouldn't be in their interest. I read on Lilja's site where he doesn't think much of bore treatments nor dry lubricants. Not sure why, because I know that petrolium based lubricants attract dirt and dirt collects moisture.

And barrel makers like the rest of us have their own opinions, including on break-in and cleaning and they dont all agree.

What would be interesting is if an independant party did some testing on a few sets of barrels, checked velocities, and cut the barrels in half after a couple of thousnd rounds to compare treated vs non treat barrels.

I volunteer. You all get me the necessary supplies and barrels and I will take care of the rest.

Steve