Match Grade Barrell break in procedures

I apologize for seeking info on this site but I thought it was up for that very purpose. Is it not better to go to a source familiar with break in and ask ? What the hell kind of site is this then ????
I didn't come on here to cause any trouble but I sure know when to quit one that treats people trying to find info "about my new stick or as a break in guide"
 
Barrel break-in is a topic that can border on religious war with strong opinions on each side.

One school of thought is that break-in on a match grade hand lapped barrel is nothing but a waste of time and money. A very famous bench rest shooter/barrel maker named Gale McMillan (yes, of the stock and gun maker family) went so far as to say the whole concept was invented by barrel makers to sell more barrels.

Others maintain that a break-in process is necessary to condition the barrel and to remove any tooling roughness especially in the throat. These processes can be elaborate.

I personally think there may be truth in both camps. I personally break in barrels slowly until they stop showing signs of copper fouling. This can be in as few as 10-15 rounds or as many as 50. After that I simply maintain the barrels cleanliness with regular cleaning (verified with a bore scope).

Note that a hand lapped barrel is a much different beast than even the best factory made barrel. The latter can be rough as a cob and may always copper foul.

-nosualc
 
I apologize for seeking info on this site but I thought it was up for that very purpose. Is it not better to go to a source familiar with break in and ask ? What the hell kind of site is this then ????
I didn't come on here to cause any trouble but I sure know when to quit one that treats people trying to find info "about my new stick or as a break in guide"

No need to apologize !!! You ask a good question and you should get a good answer.

Lots of questions will have many different opinions and you just have to decide which to use.

Opinions are based on different experiences so opinions may vary. I for one believe in barrel brake in because I have tried both ways and found that accuracy is best with a clean barrel. It can be good with a fouled barrel but not as good as a clean one. also velocity is better because copper in a barrel causes friction and friction lowers velocity.

I know this is not a bench rest site but bench rest shooters would never shoot a barrel with copper fouling and expect to win a match. so why not try to find out the potential of a rifle instead of settling for 1/2 MOA groups when it could potentially shoot 1/10th MOA.

This is a very good site to get good information (Most of the time) And you will find good answers
from experienced people. and after a while you will find out who they are. Stick with this site and you wont be disappointed.

I have been on other sites that everyone with over 10 min. experience was an expert. No one is an expert on everything. I have been shooting/competing for over 50 years and I learn something every day if I am lucky.

Just trying to help, End of sermon

PS: The reason I don't need to know who the barrel maker is, is because I see no point in slandering a guy without first hand information. If his product is not good he wont last long
if it is he will have a good future in long range shooting.

J E CUSTOM
 
Nobody seems to know exactly what goes on inside a new barrel. I've heard plenty of theories on how break in works (or doesn't work), but only two of these theories really make sense to me.

1: Match grade barrels are lapped/polished before you ever shoot them. So using bullets to polish the bore is nonsense. Any "pores" in the steel will fill with copper when you shoot and be cleaned out when you clean. So break in does nothing for the actual bore surface.

2: During machining of the throat there is a very small burr created on each of the lands. When a bullet is fired, the burr shaves off some copper which is vaporized by the heat and pressure of the burning powder. It's this copper (vapor/droplets) that condenses in the bore and causes excess fouling. After a number of shots, maybe 5-15 or so, the burr is worn away and copper fouling is greatly reduced.

They are just theories but they seem to match what I hear from some very experienced shooters: Break in is pretty much done within 10 shots from a quality barrel. Also, lower quality barrels take longer to break in because throating reamers are not as sharp and create a larger burr on the lands.
 
I maybe should have specified I am talking about an AR 10 platform.
Ya',,,,, maybe you should have. There is a section on this site for AR15/AR10. If you knew all about break-in why even post? Maybe, do a little research on your own?,,,,,,, like visiting barrel makers web sites as most have a break-in procedure on those sites? You weren't specific in your OP, so why expect the answers you want instead of the answers you got? Don't make folks try to read your mind. If you do, all you'll get is frustrated.
 
I apologize for seeking info on this site but I thought it was up for that very purpose. Is it not better to go to a source familiar with break in and ask ? What the hell kind of site is this then ????
I didn't come on here to cause any trouble but I sure know when to quit one that treats people trying to find info "about my new stick or as a break in guide"

You did get good info, It was just very different than the barrel maker told you or what you might have thought he was trying to convey. Maybe it went something like... Your barrel should be well broken in "before 100 rounds", So 1-99 could be just as viable for the circumstance. Maybe you got some 19 year old "tech" on the phone offering answers not experience or you just could be dealing with a malicious maker/vendor they do exist and is was why I was curious to who the maker is.

Don't hate the joint because you got pointed or direct info or answers (opinions too) here, I have started threads I didn't like the replies too also, We cant help that on a internet forum.
 
I specifically chose this forum site because it listed "barrels". That being said I had been to several sites dealing with break in procedures. I was still looking for my original posting question of the 100 round series. I thought I would go on a site like this because most LRH people would have some OPINIONS or heard of such break in process. Shortgrass, do you belong to sites just to agitate people ? I knew about barrel break in procedures but not one like the one I was instructed to do. My post was to find out if anyone had ever heard of this and what their feelings were about it. Just to put every ones mind to rest the barrel makers name is Dez Tactical Arms. They are located in Adams, WI. I personally went to their place of business and watched him assemble my barrel onto my gun. I looked into his credentials and was impressed. He is not a fly by nite operator. There have been articles in gun magazines about the accuracy of his barrels, sub moa.I am sure most people never heard of him on this site. He is small and been in business for roughly 3 years. Ex military and very up to date about gun related items. He makes all his barrels and other AR accessories. I am from WI so I went with him being close to home in case of any problems and help a smaller guy get started. I hope this answers some others questions and opinions.
 
Nobody seems to know exactly what goes on inside a new barrel. I've heard plenty of theories on how break in works (or doesn't work), but only two of these theories really make sense to me.

1: Match grade barrels are lapped/polished before you ever shoot them. So using bullets to polish the bore is nonsense. Any "pores" in the steel will fill with copper when you shoot and be cleaned out when you clean. So break in does nothing for the actual bore surface.

2: During machining of the throat there is a very small burr created on each of the lands. When a bullet is fired, the burr shaves off some copper which is vaporized by the heat and pressure of the burning powder. It's this copper (vapor/droplets) that condenses in the bore and causes excess fouling. After a number of shots, maybe 5-15 or so, the burr is worn away and copper fouling is greatly reduced.

They are just theories but they seem to match what I hear from some very experienced shooters: Break in is pretty much done within 10 shots from a quality barrel. Also, lower quality barrels take longer to break in because throating reamers are not as sharp and create a larger burr on the lands.


I would have to respectfully Disagree with all of this.

There are plenty of members that do know what happens inside a barrel. A bore scope is necessary
in order to really know, not hear say. if you look at a barrel (Any Barrel)with a good 90o bore scope you will see all kinds of things that at first are disturbing. as you shoot the barrel and re- inspect it
you will see changes in the finish.

I have based MY OPINION on looking at barrels with a quality bore scope, new, old, used and clean, copper fouled, lapped un lapped, pitted, rusted and with machine marks of all kinds. I also look at every chamber I cut to check for reamer marks, burs and anything that would be undesirable. A well cut chamber should not have any burs or tool marks so brake In is for barrel quality and longevity. barrels by design, have groves and ridges that can hold copper deposits
and become difficult to clean. Brake in minimizes these and aids in cleaning.

The difference in opinions are, whether copper is a detriment to accuracy or not and does it need to be there or not. both theories have merit so there will always be differences in opinions. High end barrels are lapped to apply the best finish to prevent fouling NOT to remove pits because they should not be there if the process and barrel material it top quality.

A very wise man once told me "Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see"
so I have followed this and it has served me well.

There are some very Knowledgeable people (I don't claim to be one)on this site that do know and
and we are lucky to have there input to learn buy. There will always be differences in opinions
because of differences in every barrels quality, finish and workmanship.

Just because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't make him wrong, it just makes his opinion different that yours and once we have the tools and experience we will form our own opinion.

Agree or disagree, Don't get upset.

J E CUSTOM
 
Go with what the barrel maker recommends, he's going to be the best resource on his barrels. He's covering the warranty, he sets the procedures and it's not really going to be any skin of your nose in the long run.
 
From a well known barrel maker
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat "polished" without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.

Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.

From another well known barrel maker
The age old question, "Breaking in the New Barrel". Opinions very a lot here, and this is a very subjective topic. For the most part, the only thing you are breaking in, is the throat area of the barrel. The nicer the finish that the Finish Reamer or Throating Reamer leaves, the faster the throat will break in.

Shoot one round and clean for the first two rounds individually. Look to see what the barrel is telling you. If I'm getting little to no copper out of it, I sit down and shoot the gun. Say 4 - 5 round groups and then clean. If the barrel cleans easily and shoots well, we consider it done.

If the barrel shows some copper or is taking a little longer to clean after the first two, shoot a group of 3 rounds and clean. Then a group of 5 and clean.

After you shoot the 3rd group and 5th group, watch how long it takes to clean. Also notice your group sizes. If the group sizes are good and the cleaning is getting easier or is staying the same, then shoot 4 - 5 round groups.

If fouling appears to be heavy and taking a while to clean, notice your group sizes. If group sizes are good and not going sour, you don't have a fouling problem. Some barrels will clean easier than others. Some barrels may take a little longer to break in. Remember the throat. Fouling can start all the way from here. We have noticed sometimes that even up to approximately 100 rounds, a barrel can show signs of a lot of copper, but it still shoots really well and then for no apparent reason, you will notice little to no copper and it will clean really easy.

This is meant as guide lines only. There is no hard and fast rule for breaking in a barrel.
 
From a well known barrel maker
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat "polished" without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.

Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.

From another well known barrel maker
The age old question, "Breaking in the New Barrel". Opinions very a lot here, and this is a very subjective topic. For the most part, the only thing you are breaking in, is the throat area of the barrel. The nicer the finish that the Finish Reamer or Throating Reamer leaves, the faster the throat will break in.

Shoot one round and clean for the first two rounds individually. Look to see what the barrel is telling you. If I'm getting little to no copper out of it, I sit down and shoot the gun. Say 4 - 5 round groups and then clean. If the barrel cleans easily and shoots well, we consider it done.

If the barrel shows some copper or is taking a little longer to clean after the first two, shoot a group of 3 rounds and clean. Then a group of 5 and clean.

After you shoot the 3rd group and 5th group, watch how long it takes to clean. Also notice your group sizes. If the group sizes are good and the cleaning is getting easier or is staying the same, then shoot 4 - 5 round groups.

If fouling appears to be heavy and taking a while to clean, notice your group sizes. If group sizes are good and not going sour, you don't have a fouling problem. Some barrels will clean easier than others. Some barrels may take a little longer to break in. Remember the throat. Fouling can start all the way from here. We have noticed sometimes that even up to approximately 100 rounds, a barrel can show signs of a lot of copper, but it still shoots really well and then for no apparent reason, you will notice little to no copper and it will clean really easy.

This is meant as guide lines only. There is no hard and fast rule for breaking in a barrel.

Thanks!
 
If this match grade barrel came from any of the reputable barrel mfc's NO "break-in" procedure is needed. Some of them go as far as saying that no break in is required, but for those of their customers who feel it's necessary, they will provide their 'recommended' break in procedure, for the 'hard-core' interneters that deem it necessary ;)

Most of the best of the best barrel makers only sell lapped, air gauged to within 0.003" from the throat to the muzzle, 'Match Grade Barrels"

I've never had to break in any of my Match Grade barrels as there is no point!

If it's what you want to do, and if you've the time, energy, and $ to waste then have at 'er!
 
I would have to respectfully Disagree with all of this.

Agree or disagree, Don't get upset.

J E CUSTOM
I appreciate the comments, no reason to get upset by someone voicing an opinion based on experience as extensive as yours. My post might have been a little unclear as well. Obviously people can see the results of shooting a new barrel by using a bore scope. I'm not saying that it's just a guess if fouling occurs. The result of the first shot, the tendency of a bore to foul, the accuracy of "seasoned" barrels etc. can all be observed. What people are theorizing about is the reason behind it all. Maybe there is someone who actually knows, but I see a lot of conflicting (or different) theories as to why you should or shouldn't break in a new barrel. And these theories come from barrel makers and very experienced shooters! Since I'm not among the most experienced in the world with this I just assimilate whichever theories sound good to me. The rough throat theory seems logical and also seems to jive with the short break in procedures that a lot of people swear by. Extensive break in scenarios seem to be put forth mostly by barrel makers, whose best interest includes replacing worn out barrels.

"Burrs" may not be the best way to describe what a throating reamer does to the rifling. I know what a freshly machined piece of steel looks like though and while it may appear smooth, it looks very different from a piece of highly polished steel. So I continue to believe that it's the throat that gets broken in on a new barrel, not so much the bore itself. But like you said it's just an opinion :) And my opinion might be swayed by the fact that I don't want to clean a gun 30 times before I can relax and just shoot it.

I have several new barrels to break in right now so it's a timely thread for me. Good reading.
 
I appreciate the comments, no reason to get upset by someone voicing an opinion based on experience as extensive as yours. My post might have been a little unclear as well. Obviously people can see the results of shooting a new barrel by using a bore scope. I'm not saying that it's just a guess if fouling occurs. The result of the first shot, the tendency of a bore to foul, the accuracy of "seasoned" barrels etc. can all be observed. What people are theorizing about is the reason behind it all. Maybe there is someone who actually knows, but I see a lot of conflicting (or different) theories as to why you should or shouldn't break in a new barrel. And these theories come from barrel makers and very experienced shooters! Since I'm not among the most experienced in the world with this I just assimilate whichever theories sound good to me. The rough throat theory seems logical and also seems to jive with the short break in procedures that a lot of people swear by. Extensive break in scenarios seem to be put forth mostly by barrel makers, whose best interest includes replacing worn out barrels.

"Burrs" may not be the best way to describe what a throating reamer does to the rifling. I know what a freshly machined piece of steel looks like though and while it may appear smooth, it looks very different from a piece of highly polished steel. So I continue to believe that it's the throat that gets broken in on a new barrel, not so much the bore itself. But like you said it's just an opinion :) And my opinion might be swayed by the fact that I don't want to clean a gun 30 times before I can relax and just shoot it.

I have several new barrels to break in right now so it's a timely thread for me. Good reading.


Thanks for the reply.
I was surely not upset,and hope you were not ether.

I never intend to criticize anyone, just explain why My opinion is only My opinion. I for one don't believe that Barrel makers want to recommend a procedure that would destroy the life of there barrel.

The barrel makers that I prefer to use, recommend a break-in procedure that will improve the performance of there product and keep the customer coming back. If a barrel doesn't last very
long under normal use most will look for another barrel maker. their procedures should be followed
for best performance.

I have a match rifle that was broak in as per the barrel makers recommendation and cleaned as often as possible and has over 22,000 rounds down the barrel and will still maintain a 1/2 MOA group. The carbon left in the barrel after each shot is much more abrasive that a bronze brush
and does a lot more damage than cleaning.

No one will ever convince me that a barrel break in is not beneficial just as others are convinced
it is not necessary or detrimental. That is why there will never be a 100% agreement on break in
or not.

I have encountered this with several brands and after following their recommendation not to do a break in and their barrels did not last as long as they should considering the cartridge. and after changing the brand of barrel the new barrel more than tripled the life of accuracy so I now decline to use those brands and will not build on one of those brands even if the owner wants to use one of these, Because as we all know everything eventually falls back on the Smith.

The only thing I can add to that is, why would I go to all that trouble, time and effort if barrel break in was not doing any good at improving accuracy and longevity.

One thing though, We gave the original Poster something to think about so he can make his own decision.

J E CUSTOM
 
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