VLD Pilot
Well-Known Member
From the rifling process finishing the barrel. Factory barrels aren't lapped and finished like custom barrels. There kinda crude looking by comparison.
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Major copper fouling?
- Thread starter shooter221
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
They are marks left behind by the process when they make the barrel. Many rifles are made using a very basic process while others go through extensive finishing processes to remove tooling marks. Take some time and do a search about barrel manufacturing processes. There are different types and you'll learn a great deal about why your rifle is fouling so.
archangel485
Well-Known Member
What's the smallest caliber you can do with this?
Usually a 20 cal.
There usually tooling Mark's left from reaming the barrel after drilling.
Custom button barrel makers usually pre- lap to get the reamer Mark's out before they pull or push the button through for rifling.
If the marks are there before the button process they will be there after.
If you scope a barrel with these marks it will look like a set of railroad track across the lands and grooves.
The more frequently you clean that barrel now( even when taking a break during shooting) the less the copper fouling will occur in the future as the barrel gets burnished/polished. At the moment it might seem like a lot of bother for a new rifle, but eventually the barrel should stay cleaner longer.
Addendum:
got this from Savage Web Site:
What is the barrel break-in procedure?
Savage Moderator
- 7 years ago
Although there may be different schools of thought on barrel break-in, this is what Precision Shooting Magazine recommends:
STEP 1 (repeated 10 times)
- Fire one round
- Push wet patches soaked with a powder solvent through the bore
- Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
- Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
- Push wet patches soaked with a copper solvent through the bore
- Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
- Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
- Push a patch with 2 drops of oil through the bore
- Fire a 3 shot group
- Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1 after each group
- Fire a 5 shot group
- Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1
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shooter221
Member
Oh man, I 100% picked it up Friday and took it straight to the forest Saturday without giving it any TLC. I'll keep this in mind as my collection grows.The more frequently you clean that barrel now( even when taking a break during shooting) the less the copper fouling will occur in the future as the barrel gets burnished/polished. At the moment it might seem like a lot of bother for a new rifle, but eventually the barrel should stay cleaner longer.
Addendum:
got this from Savage Web Site:
What is the barrel break-in procedure?
Savage Moderator
Follow
- 7 years ago
Although there may be different schools of thought on barrel break-in, this is what Precision Shooting Magazine recommends:
STEP 1 (repeated 10 times)
STEP 2 (repeated 5 times)
- Fire one round
- Push wet patches soaked with a powder solvent through the bore
- Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
- Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
- Push wet patches soaked with a copper solvent through the bore
- Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
- Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
- Push a patch with 2 drops of oil through the bore
STEP 3 (repeat 5 times)
- Fire a 3 shot group
- Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1 after each group
They recommend the use of a patch with 2 drops of oil after the cleaning so that you are not shooting with a dry bore. It is also advisable to use a powder solvent and copper solvent from the same manufacturer to be sure they are chemically compatible.
- Fire a 5 shot group
- Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1
VLD Pilot
Well-Known Member
Mines .20 minimum. Don't own any .20 Cal rifles but plenty of .224 on up. It's an amazing tool
Well...that just means you will work a while to get the copper out and then if you want , you can follow that break in procedure. Probably best to though. It's not in the manual, my Granddaughter has an Axis (I think that's what you meant by Apex) and I went through the manual to see if they related a break-in procedure ( they don't but it's on their web site where I copied it).
Ever since there were articles in magazines about breakin' in a barrel, the Manufactures have referred to the procedure when a customer has a question such as yours.
Like I wrote, it'll take a while to burnish the lands and grooves but the cleaning intervals should lengthen 'cause it'll stay reasonably cleaner longer.
I haven't checked lately, but Savage used to have Douglas provide the barrels for their rifles. Good quality barrels. Don't know if that is what is on yours.
My Granddaughter's Axis is a 243 . She practiced shooting and her Dad cleaned it. Used about 40 rounds to get comfortable. Killed her first ever whitetail, a 3 yr doe, at 110 yds. 1 shot. Folded it right up. Venison for the table, and she was a celebrity with her gal pals. With that, she graduated to doing her own gun cleaning.
Enjoy !
keithcandler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Messages
- 650
This is the absolute truth!
Good bronze bristle brushes do the work on getting out stubborn Carbon. Many products will get out the copper.
So, you know the new norm for this barrel. One poster suggested that you get a Teslong bore scope, and that is World Class advise!
Savages will shoot very well, but they are tough to keep running at their best accuracy due to rough barrels. I have had some very, very good shooting savages, but they had frequent cleaning intervals to get their best accuracy of sub 1/2" at 100 yards. Accuracy usually went from 1/2" to 1 3/4" at or before the 20 round mark.
Rough tooling makes for knooks and crannies for powder fouling and copper to build up in. JB Compound, is your friend on tight fitting patches on a punch type of jag, not a slotted jag. A product called Rem Clean is pretty aggressive on these rough barrels.
Don't be discouraged, get a Teslong bore scope, and you will learn in a hurry how to keep your barrel running at peak accuracy.
Jon Bischof
Well-Known Member
YZ, Be careful what you ask for. Who knows what evil
lurks in the darkness of your rifle bores? Once you see it... you can never forget it. Will you be able to live with the horror?keithcandler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Messages
- 650
There is no horror in getting educated by what a bore scope can teach you. What you learn will last you the rest of your life, and you can use your Teslong to help others, also.
If/when you see the rail road tracks in your barrel as Sherm explained, this can not be lapped out or smoothed out from shooting...only to a very minor degree.
Brownell's makes a product that is a paste to use as a lapping "Abrasive compound", 600 & 800 Grit Silicone carbide.
600 grit Abrasive Compound: product # 083-045-600
800 grit Abrasive Compound: Product # 083-045-800
I use these on tight fitting patches, 5 patches each, short stroking on the very worst of really rough barrels.
It is best to use a bore scope with the above abrasive compounds to monitor your progress because you are removing metal.
For the average guy that just wants to clean his barrel in a hurry, Montana Extreme makes a great product that does not lap the barrel, it is called:
Montana Extreme Copper Cream, and it is a world class product to use on punch type jags that fit tight or plastic brushes, and Montana Extreme makes some of the finest plastic brushes for this purpose. I actually prefer the Copper Cream over JB due to ease of use.
Copper is easy to get out of a barrel with many products, that Carbon is a serious and often VERY, VERY difficult thing to get out of a barrel.
If/when you see the rail road tracks in your barrel as Sherm explained, this can not be lapped out or smoothed out from shooting...only to a very minor degree.
Brownell's makes a product that is a paste to use as a lapping "Abrasive compound", 600 & 800 Grit Silicone carbide.
600 grit Abrasive Compound: product # 083-045-600
800 grit Abrasive Compound: Product # 083-045-800
I use these on tight fitting patches, 5 patches each, short stroking on the very worst of really rough barrels.
It is best to use a bore scope with the above abrasive compounds to monitor your progress because you are removing metal.
For the average guy that just wants to clean his barrel in a hurry, Montana Extreme makes a great product that does not lap the barrel, it is called:
Montana Extreme Copper Cream, and it is a world class product to use on punch type jags that fit tight or plastic brushes, and Montana Extreme makes some of the finest plastic brushes for this purpose. I actually prefer the Copper Cream over JB due to ease of use.
Copper is easy to get out of a barrel with many products, that Carbon is a serious and often VERY, VERY difficult thing to get out of a barrel.
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Jon Bischof
Well-Known Member
A bore scope is probably beneficial for most people. But not for Bob. Bob used to be the high scoring shooter at local matches. He put almost $5,000 into one of his target rifles. But then one day he bought a bore scope. He hurried home from the range mumbling something like "cracks n craters". We didn't see him for a while after that, so we asked his wife "What about Bob?" She just shook her head and said, "He's been spending a lot of time in the gun cleaning room with the door locked." After a couple more weeks of not seeing Bob at the range we heard that his wife had moved out and some other relatives went over to check on him and found Bob smoking JB Bore paste from a water bong. His hands were bleeding; he had turned his target rifle into a smoothbore.
We hope Bob gets the help he needs for his addiction. Bore scopes are useful tools, but some folks just can't deal with what they reveal.
If the above story bears any resemblance to you or anyone else named Bob, get professional help while you still can.
We hope Bob gets the help he needs for his addiction. Bore scopes are useful tools, but some folks just can't deal with what they reveal.
If the above story bears any resemblance to you or anyone else named Bob, get professional help while you still can.
keithcandler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Messages
- 650
Barrels are individuals. According to their initial quality, and later on, their individual wear, cleaning can and does require more or less attention per individual barrel.
Each barrel will be unique in and of it's self.
As barrels get fire cracked badly, leade angle has been burnt out, more attention is needed.
The approach of Hear no Evil, See No Evil rarely gets stellar results. It is better to be educated and informed about your individual barrels vs being ignorant and walking in the Blind.
You don't have to spend a ton of time on barrels cleaning them with the good bronze bristle brushes, compounds, and solvents out today.
Also, the bore condition, throat condition can account for unexplained flyers. There is no way a guy is going to know about carbon build up without the use of a bore scope. At a certain point, the carbon gets so hard, it will not show the slightest amount of Grey, must less Black on a patch.
Some people just do not want to know the Truth, because they can't handle the Truth. All of this is just part of a hobby, and a guy can jump off anytime he feels like it is not "fun" anymore.
Each barrel will be unique in and of it's self.
As barrels get fire cracked badly, leade angle has been burnt out, more attention is needed.
The approach of Hear no Evil, See No Evil rarely gets stellar results. It is better to be educated and informed about your individual barrels vs being ignorant and walking in the Blind.
You don't have to spend a ton of time on barrels cleaning them with the good bronze bristle brushes, compounds, and solvents out today.
Also, the bore condition, throat condition can account for unexplained flyers. There is no way a guy is going to know about carbon build up without the use of a bore scope. At a certain point, the carbon gets so hard, it will not show the slightest amount of Grey, must less Black on a patch.
Some people just do not want to know the Truth, because they can't handle the Truth. All of this is just part of a hobby, and a guy can jump off anytime he feels like it is not "fun" anymore.
