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Mailman's future ram spotted!
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srhaggerty
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
GG, I am not any good at field judging, but I wanted to know how one determines that ram to be around 180"? I am hoping to draw a sheep tag here in ID, so any help would be a plus.
GG, I am not any good at field judging, but I wanted to know how one determines that ram to be around 180"? I am hoping to draw a sheep tag here in ID, so any help would be a plus.
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srhaggerty
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
Yeah I guess I could have looked there. Ric what do you think the score of that ram in your picture would be?
Yeah I guess I could have looked there. Ric what do you think the score of that ram in your picture would be?
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srhaggerty
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
Yeah I can imagine. I played around hunting Mountain Goats once. I know a little about what it's like.
Yeah I can imagine. I played around hunting Mountain Goats once. I know a little about what it's like.
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
Cam , if you look at the two Rams you can see quite a difference in the quality , or score between the two. The Ram in Rics' photo is close to a full curl yet lacks length due to how tight the curl actually is . The bottom of the outside curl only goes down to about halfway between its' eye and jawline, and the hole or inside diameter of the inside curl is very small.
Now go to the pics GG took and look at the depth of the outside curl. Notice that it is even with the bottom of the jawline. Next look at the hole size of the inside curl and see how much larger it is than the Ram in Rics photo. This tells you that this Ram has good length even if it is not quite full curl. Couple that with the good mass and you know this Ram will score very well.
A full curl is great and we would all like one, but it doesn't guarantee a better score!!
If the sheep addicts that are keeping track of this Ram say it will go 180" , you can bet that it will.----RHB
Cam , if you look at the two Rams you can see quite a difference in the quality , or score between the two. The Ram in Rics' photo is close to a full curl yet lacks length due to how tight the curl actually is . The bottom of the outside curl only goes down to about halfway between its' eye and jawline, and the hole or inside diameter of the inside curl is very small.
Now go to the pics GG took and look at the depth of the outside curl. Notice that it is even with the bottom of the jawline. Next look at the hole size of the inside curl and see how much larger it is than the Ram in Rics photo. This tells you that this Ram has good length even if it is not quite full curl. Couple that with the good mass and you know this Ram will score very well.
A full curl is great and we would all like one, but it doesn't guarantee a better score!!
If the sheep addicts that are keeping track of this Ram say it will go 180" , you can bet that it will.----RHB
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
7mmrhb hit the nail on the head.
Mass makes up the majority of the score. And the only time curl means piddly squat is when there is an age limitation where curl can be an indicator if you can't see annular rings. Some STone sheep hunts in BC and Dall hunts in Yukon are like that. But I know of no desert rams or rocky rams that have curl limitations anymore. Utah used to have a 3/4 curl regulation that started back in the mid '80's but was dropped many years ago because you could have a 12 year old battle axe ram that brooms back behind his jaw and wouldn't be legal under that old law.
In B&C scoring, there are no points or bonuses for curl. It is not a measurement. There are however deductions for asymmetry in horn length.
I will not say "guided" because I didn't get paid but I have "helped" get 8 sheep (deserts, and rockies) for guys since 2002 and I can assure you and anyone else for that matter, this ram is what is advertised. Thus the big price tag. It is basically an automatic entry into the B&C book for whoever shoots it and Karl paid dearly for that chance at him. I do believe that there are bigger rams in Utah, but with all of our super remote country (of which most Utah bioligists have not even seen) there is bound to be another monster out there somewhere. But it would require months of scouting in some of the worst, inhospitable areas on earth and I don't think Karl is up for that. This ram he can pop from his truck (with some long range help of course) and then walk to Mcdonalds for lunch. Not my kind of sheep hunting but it ain't my tag! I just can't wait to stoke those curls for a few minutes but will have to wait six more months!
7mmrhb hit the nail on the head.
Mass makes up the majority of the score. And the only time curl means piddly squat is when there is an age limitation where curl can be an indicator if you can't see annular rings. Some STone sheep hunts in BC and Dall hunts in Yukon are like that. But I know of no desert rams or rocky rams that have curl limitations anymore. Utah used to have a 3/4 curl regulation that started back in the mid '80's but was dropped many years ago because you could have a 12 year old battle axe ram that brooms back behind his jaw and wouldn't be legal under that old law.
In B&C scoring, there are no points or bonuses for curl. It is not a measurement. There are however deductions for asymmetry in horn length.
I will not say "guided" because I didn't get paid but I have "helped" get 8 sheep (deserts, and rockies) for guys since 2002 and I can assure you and anyone else for that matter, this ram is what is advertised. Thus the big price tag. It is basically an automatic entry into the B&C book for whoever shoots it and Karl paid dearly for that chance at him. I do believe that there are bigger rams in Utah, but with all of our super remote country (of which most Utah bioligists have not even seen) there is bound to be another monster out there somewhere. But it would require months of scouting in some of the worst, inhospitable areas on earth and I don't think Karl is up for that. This ram he can pop from his truck (with some long range help of course) and then walk to Mcdonalds for lunch. Not my kind of sheep hunting but it ain't my tag! I just can't wait to stoke those curls for a few minutes but will have to wait six more months!
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
7mmRHB
Like I said I'm not up on sheep.
The mass is very clear, there was no dought he is a monster!
I just thought that if the curl turned up it was a full curl and now know better. He is a great specimen of the rocky Mt. sheep. And its nice to get these pointers of what to look at and compare.
What is the major different of Rocky Mt and Desert??
I don't think most people can comprehend the vastness of some of southern Utah and the difficulty to access some of those canyons. If it wasn't for Lake Powell that area might not even show up on a map!!
There might even be some ancient ones living in there some where!!
I been puttin in for Mt goat for my once-in-a-life.
there all over timp! been thinking of changing but the points don't cross over and I know sheep hunting is addictive and can be costly to get the grand slam!!
enjoying the education
CAM
7mmRHB
Like I said I'm not up on sheep.
The mass is very clear, there was no dought he is a monster!
I just thought that if the curl turned up it was a full curl and now know better. He is a great specimen of the rocky Mt. sheep. And its nice to get these pointers of what to look at and compare.
What is the major different of Rocky Mt and Desert??
I don't think most people can comprehend the vastness of some of southern Utah and the difficulty to access some of those canyons. If it wasn't for Lake Powell that area might not even show up on a map!!
There might even be some ancient ones living in there some where!!
I been puttin in for Mt goat for my once-in-a-life.
there all over timp! been thinking of changing but the points don't cross over and I know sheep hunting is addictive and can be costly to get the grand slam!!
enjoying the education
CAM
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
[ QUOTE ]
What is the major different of Rocky Mt and Desert??
[/ QUOTE ]
Rockies are larger animals with larger horns in general although the top 5 records for each species are close to the same size. Rockies have larger sculls, longer noses, bigger bases, and are on average at least 100 lbs heavier. They look squattier too becuase their chests are more square and beefy. In some areas, a rocky coat will be more gray/brown while deserts are usually somewhat cream colored. I have even seen a few that where kinda pinkish/taupe.
In the nine mile/range creek unit around Price, Utah, there have been a few documented rocky rams that have wondered out into the north end of the San Rafael Swell and bred with a desert ewe creating an odd looking mix. Huge horns are usually the result with a narrow neck and body and triangular shaped noses. These rams look like the weight of their horns could tip them over because they are so unbalanced. Of course, if you shoot one of these on a desert tag, B&C will score it as a rocky! This really stinks if you needed a desert to complete your slam!
There are also several different strains of desert sheep. Nelsons and Mexicanas are the most common. Utah has had both transplanted here from baja california and Nevada and Arizona. The ram my dad killed looked a lot like a mexicana.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think most people can comprehend the vastness of some of southern Utah and the difficulty to access some of those canyons. If it wasn't for Lake Powell that area might not even show up on a map!!
[/ QUOTE ]
You aint a kiddin'! That is why it is the most remote area sheep have been found. So many unexplored, unreachable areas that not all the sheep have been found. Some have been released in this area and have never been seen again even in arial surveys! I know several guys have taken rapelling gear on their hunts so they could get to the top of a mesa they thought would hold sheep!
After my hunt, I learned part of the area that the biologist thought might hold sheep and we sat down and he took some official statements and gps locations from me so he could check them out by plane. I found one spring that had sheep droppings piled up about 6 inches all the way around it and some monster tracks led up to the water. This spring was completely hidden from the air and not on any map but was about 4 miles from a drop-off guzzler the sheep hadn't even touched. They couldn't figure out why it wasn't being used. It was because they are habitual animals and will never deviate from a known water source. They have found desert ewes that died of dehydration because their habitual water source (in this case, a guzzler) dried up and the sheep wouldn't go look for another drink!
[ QUOTE ]
There might even be some ancient ones living in there some where!!
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, you are absolutely correct. This unit is so remote that is was never used for domestic sheep ranching so there are wild sheep in that maze that are native! I have seen a herd in this area that were native and it was the coolest thing I have ever seen in my hunting career. After hearing about these possible native sheep and how they look, I know the ones we saw were native by their unusual appearance. They had different faces and different eyes and were very pinkish in color. It was like looking at a ghost from the past. Almost eery. They had no idea what we were. We quite possibly were the first humans they had ever seen by the way they acted. They didn't know if they should run, come closer, or just stand there and figure us out. We got about a 3 minute close encounter and then the lead ram bolted away and down a 500 foot cliff.
There are also native desert bighorns in the San Juan unit and up the Escalante arm of Lake Powell. Some of the San Juans have never been close to a human but the ones up the lake a bit have. Many visitors on house boats have seen ram bands come down to water in the morning. Some of these are transplants and some are native.
The biggest herd of deserts in Utah are in the San Rafael swell on both sides of I-70. That is the boundary for the north and south sub-units. There are thought to be well over 1000 sheep in this area. But again, because of the remoteness of this area and all the little hiding spots in the slickrock, no one is absolutely sure of how many there really are.
It's too bad you have goat points and not sheep points /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Just kidding. Goats are cool too. I keep tabs on the ones on Leihty peak, Beaver mountains, Box Elder mtn, and the Timp units. I can watch the ones on Timp from my backyard! Uncle B also takes frequent trips up the mountain to look at them. He has some great pictures of them from arms length! B, can you post them?
Here is some more pics of sheep country. Sorry, I just get so excited about sheep I can't help myself.
THis is more of the East K. unit:
[image]
Lots of places to hide huh?
Here is probably a good specimen of the Nelsoni type desert:
This one was taken on the beaver dam mountains by St. George:
And here is my dads ram that looks Mexicana. This is the unit record for the East sub unit:
[ QUOTE ]
What is the major different of Rocky Mt and Desert??
[/ QUOTE ]
Rockies are larger animals with larger horns in general although the top 5 records for each species are close to the same size. Rockies have larger sculls, longer noses, bigger bases, and are on average at least 100 lbs heavier. They look squattier too becuase their chests are more square and beefy. In some areas, a rocky coat will be more gray/brown while deserts are usually somewhat cream colored. I have even seen a few that where kinda pinkish/taupe.
In the nine mile/range creek unit around Price, Utah, there have been a few documented rocky rams that have wondered out into the north end of the San Rafael Swell and bred with a desert ewe creating an odd looking mix. Huge horns are usually the result with a narrow neck and body and triangular shaped noses. These rams look like the weight of their horns could tip them over because they are so unbalanced. Of course, if you shoot one of these on a desert tag, B&C will score it as a rocky! This really stinks if you needed a desert to complete your slam!
There are also several different strains of desert sheep. Nelsons and Mexicanas are the most common. Utah has had both transplanted here from baja california and Nevada and Arizona. The ram my dad killed looked a lot like a mexicana.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think most people can comprehend the vastness of some of southern Utah and the difficulty to access some of those canyons. If it wasn't for Lake Powell that area might not even show up on a map!!
[/ QUOTE ]
You aint a kiddin'! That is why it is the most remote area sheep have been found. So many unexplored, unreachable areas that not all the sheep have been found. Some have been released in this area and have never been seen again even in arial surveys! I know several guys have taken rapelling gear on their hunts so they could get to the top of a mesa they thought would hold sheep!
After my hunt, I learned part of the area that the biologist thought might hold sheep and we sat down and he took some official statements and gps locations from me so he could check them out by plane. I found one spring that had sheep droppings piled up about 6 inches all the way around it and some monster tracks led up to the water. This spring was completely hidden from the air and not on any map but was about 4 miles from a drop-off guzzler the sheep hadn't even touched. They couldn't figure out why it wasn't being used. It was because they are habitual animals and will never deviate from a known water source. They have found desert ewes that died of dehydration because their habitual water source (in this case, a guzzler) dried up and the sheep wouldn't go look for another drink!
[ QUOTE ]
There might even be some ancient ones living in there some where!!
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, you are absolutely correct. This unit is so remote that is was never used for domestic sheep ranching so there are wild sheep in that maze that are native! I have seen a herd in this area that were native and it was the coolest thing I have ever seen in my hunting career. After hearing about these possible native sheep and how they look, I know the ones we saw were native by their unusual appearance. They had different faces and different eyes and were very pinkish in color. It was like looking at a ghost from the past. Almost eery. They had no idea what we were. We quite possibly were the first humans they had ever seen by the way they acted. They didn't know if they should run, come closer, or just stand there and figure us out. We got about a 3 minute close encounter and then the lead ram bolted away and down a 500 foot cliff.
There are also native desert bighorns in the San Juan unit and up the Escalante arm of Lake Powell. Some of the San Juans have never been close to a human but the ones up the lake a bit have. Many visitors on house boats have seen ram bands come down to water in the morning. Some of these are transplants and some are native.
The biggest herd of deserts in Utah are in the San Rafael swell on both sides of I-70. That is the boundary for the north and south sub-units. There are thought to be well over 1000 sheep in this area. But again, because of the remoteness of this area and all the little hiding spots in the slickrock, no one is absolutely sure of how many there really are.
It's too bad you have goat points and not sheep points /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Just kidding. Goats are cool too. I keep tabs on the ones on Leihty peak, Beaver mountains, Box Elder mtn, and the Timp units. I can watch the ones on Timp from my backyard! Uncle B also takes frequent trips up the mountain to look at them. He has some great pictures of them from arms length! B, can you post them?
Here is some more pics of sheep country. Sorry, I just get so excited about sheep I can't help myself.
THis is more of the East K. unit:
[image]
Lots of places to hide huh?
Here is probably a good specimen of the Nelsoni type desert:
This one was taken on the beaver dam mountains by St. George:
And here is my dads ram that looks Mexicana. This is the unit record for the East sub unit:
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
Cam
There are also California sheep. You know how to tell a California Sheep from the other sheep?
Hint: This is a joke so you can make up your own answer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Cam
There are also California sheep. You know how to tell a California Sheep from the other sheep?
Hint: This is a joke so you can make up your own answer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Re: Mailman\'s future ram spotted!
I know, I know, the California sheep are the ones not found in California! Kind of like the people! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I know, I know, the California sheep are the ones not found in California! Kind of like the people! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
