Long Range Muzzleloader

[Ian M]

Max,
I would not argue your point, no doubt if the big heavy and long bullet is launched properly it will carry a long distance accurately. Seems to me that the "art" of getting the most out of patched bullets might be dying, but I believe that you are correct that patched bullets (muzzleloaded) have the same potential.
I have a friend in Kansas City who participates in Schuetzen style competitions, those guys are VERY good shooters and keeping a tradition alive. Same would go for the shooters mentioned that build super-heavy benchrest style muzzleloaders, no doubt they are doing some stuff that would compete with centerfires. But unfortunately this has no relevance to the guy who just bought a blisterpacked Traditions from WallMart and who's going to participate in a muzzleloader season this year. Bottom line is that he is going hunting, and we sure as hell need more hunters in this world we live in, just to keep our sport going.
Harv,
We recovered a bunch of bullets, the T/C - Hornady was the best performing at long distnace, plus the most accurate.

I am going to shoot the T/C bullets out to 300 yards shortly to establish actual drops and wind drifts. Will use a large steel backdrop to try to catch all the shots, have a spot where I can change firing positions to fire in full and partial value winds. Will put a tactical scope on an Encore so I have lots of adjustment lattitude.

 

[mr308]

I have read about muzzle loader matches at camp perry. You could do a search for camp perry matches to see what distance they shoot. Also find out about equipment.

 

[Guest]

Looking forward to seeing your report on drops and wind drift, Ian. Am I correct in thinking the heavy bullets will do better at longer ranges? What bullet weight would do best at the 300 yard range?
h

 

[Ian M]

Harv,
I am shooting the 250 grain bullet primarily since this is the one they intend for long shooting. Will let you guys know how this shakes out.

 

[MAX]

Ian,

Your point is taken, but just for the hell of it...

I've been paper patching for cartridge guns for a couple of years. It is dirt simple in general terms and rather a shame more folks don't take advantage of its benefits.

As to "blister pack" technology...I have zilch for expereince with inlines and have never fired a sabot bullet. Perhaps the guns have potential, but the practice of using sabots w/ pistol bullets insures that it is a short range proposition. I'm guessing here but think that nowhere in the instructions is it written that regular ML bullets in the blister pack inlines is verbotten.

Happiness in a .50 would begin at 500 grains or heavier IMO. I'd probably not be using 3 Pyrodex pellets to start with.

Take care.

 

[Ian M]

Max,
Fact is I have never heard of anyone shooting big long bullets in an in-line much, except for the big 520 grain Black Belts that I tested a few years back. I believe that you are correct because those big slugs were very accurate and at 200 yards they about equaled the short stubby 295 Black Belt in velocity. I set my chronographs downrange and shot till I caught some bullets for velocities. Kicked like a mule, believe I only shot 100 grains of Pyrodex during that testing. Rifle was a Knight Wolveriine which is a light model.

I still have a bunch of the 520's, if I can find some time I will try them at longer distances - could be good rock plinkers.

 

[BIGREDD]

I have an T/C Encore Muzzle loader and a 5x15 Bushnell 3200 Elite...Three 50 gr pyrodex pellets behind 240 grain XTP bullet and it shoots one minute groups at 200 yards. I have shot it out to 300 on steel silouettes and it is deadly accurate.The farthest kill I made was 180 yards on a Whitetail Doe. I would be quite comfortable shooting it 250 yards at deer...I think for really long range a larger bullet than 240 grain might do a better job?

 

[Ian M]

Red,
You could try the new Shcckwave bullet when it becomes available, T/C has much better distribution in Canada this year. Try three of the new Triple Seven pellets with that bullet - we got some exceptional groups all the way to 300 with it. About 3" high at 100 and about 3" low at 200, pretty flat for an in-line.
Sounds like you have a very good shooting Encore. The more I shoot that rifle the more impressed I am with its versatility and accuracy.

 

[Guest]

I have a T/C Encore that I shoot often but cannot deer hunt with a scope here in Minnesota. Only Iron sights allowed. But while sighting for last years season, I screwed around and starting going out at 300 yds. I thought I was going to be way off but ended up shooting 4" groups at 300 yds with the ol' smokepole! Loved it!! I would only feel comfortable shooting deer at <200 yds. though! Now you all got me going and I am going to go out this weekend and try some long range with the Encore!!
Here is my encore- but this is with the .300 barrell on it.

 

[Ian M]

I chronographed the Shock Wave bullets this week downrange and got some very good accuracy. Best was three shots into 1.25" at 200 yards, that was probably a fluke but it happened.
Shot an Omega and this rifle preferred Pyrodex over 777 pellets. 777 pellets are 90 fps faster at the muzzle than Pyrodex - using 150 grain loads.
From a 100 yard zero the bullet dropped 8 inches at 200, this is flat for a smokepole.
Beat up my skyscreens again, plastic chunks on the ground everywhere but that is what happens when you leave the diffusers on. Easy to replace.
Now I am going to try to get velocities at 250 and 300 yards, will be tough. Fired 65 shots the other day.
Found that 5 30-grain Pyrodex pellets hit exactly the same as 3 fifties with this rifle. Quite a difference in size but they worked the same.

 

[frankg]

I finally came across something like what I was thinking of. I am posting the important part of this post and a link to the whole thread.I know some of you have already read this.

>>>>>>>>>>>
If anyone's interested and just for fun; I'll explain another rifle I shoot that's similar to your long range rifles only from an era long gone. Some of you may know what a slug gun is and some may not. It's not a deer gun. It's a long range muzzle loading bullet shooting black powder rifle that got it's start during the Civil War as a sniper rifle.
My rifle (modern made) has a 2" across the flats barrel of .52 cal. and shoot's an 812 gr. 2-piece lead cross paper patched bullet at 1275 fps with 145 grs. of Swiss made 1F black powder. The rifle has a 27X Mitchell scope on it and has an underhammer action with a sealed ignition. Yep you guessed it....the recoil is significant to say the least. The rifle weighs 35 lbs. It has a false muzzle and uses a toggle joint starter to get the bullet past the choke (about .0005") at the muzzle which is about 2" long. The hardest part of shooting this thing is making the 2-piece bullets. The nose piece is cast of hard lead and the base piece is cast of pure lead. I make what are called "squirt die's" to swage the nose and nose inside area and then knurl the inside of the nose on my lathe. The knurl is their so the point on the base will fill in the knurl to lock the two pieces together. The two pieces are then run through the squirt die to make one bullet. The finished bullet is 1.675" long. The theory here is that the hard nose won't "slump" on ignition while the pure lead base will "bump up" to seal the gas pressure. I use freezer wrap (meat wrapping paper) for the cross patch with the shiney side towards the riflings. Fun gun to shoot but they can be "VERY TEMPERMENTAL" about loading and cleaning. Need some exercise ? I normally shoot about 80 bullets per match (3 targets-10 shots each). You have to make a lot of sight adjustments for the different ranges and conditions which requires a lot of bullets. The gun weighs 35 lbs. and of course you have to pick it up from loading it to put it on your bench. Then after firing it you have to take it off the bench to clean it between shots and load it. The math: two X 35 lbs. X 80 shots= 2.8 tons.
If I bored anyone...sorry. Just thought you guy's might be interested in reading about another kind of "long range rifle" !
Gary http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=05d433e857f3dd2866fbd36a6481f4cb&threadid=5046&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wonder if an 812gr .52 would be adequate for small whitetail?

 

[Ian M]

Frank,
I envy your opportunity to shoot such an interesting rifle. For some reason I feel that a person would be forced to slow down and do things deliberately, methodically and the results will be good.

I and many of my freinds are way too caught-up in hurry-up stuff, shoot this so you can go on to that.

Would sure like to see a picture of that slug gun. A long time ago someone wrote a wonderful article about such rifles, has always stayed with me about how accurate those rifles could shoot such big chunks of lead. The story was about an old man who had used one in battle and long after the wars he still had the old rifle, had to use it one last time. No idea what publication or when, but the author detailed all the preparations to prepare for a shot, just like you did.

What a difference from our plastic sleeved jacketed bullets and pelleted propellant. I understand that the most popular selling muzzleloader bullet today is the blackbelted conical, has the bottom of a sabot attached to its base. Only one reason it is so popular, it is the easiest to load. No great performance advantage, it is just easy to slide down the bore and that is what many shooters today are looking for. This bullet is the opposite of what you are describing - it requires a brainless act for loading, not a fussy bunch of preparations.

Heading out to the range to melt some barrel metal - high nineties today in the frozen wasteland.

 

[frankg]

Not me!
The fellow who posted that info at benchrest central is named Gary. I have no idea who he is but I thought what he wrote would apply to this topic.

 

[Ian M]

Frank,
Excuse me for that, I totally miss-read your post. Did not go to the link...

Shot in extreme heat today (97F), tested a prototype muzzleloader bullet for a company to see how far it will stay stable out to. Had a 2.65" three shot group at two hundred yards, guess it was flying fairly well. Wind was gusting, around 20 at full value but these bullets did not drift much, only about 5" at 200. Huge difference in how hot the barrels get and stay during a calm day vs a windy hot day.

Also shot some test-loads with our .308's and 155 Comp. Supremes - not a great idea to have the spit pounded out of you by a light muzzleloader loaded with a 300 grain bullet and 150 grains of Pyrodex, then try to shoot the heavy .308's with decent accuracy.

Best group with my ROCK went four shots into 0.292" at 100 yards - 2887fps, think I will stay with that one. 47 Varget with the 155 Nosler at 2.830" in Win. brass&primer.