Long Range Bullets and Terminal Performance

[MontanaRifleman]

IMO, while the E-Tip did not open great ( @1800 fps) in the previous picture, it did attain a blunt surface.
Also IMO, if a monolithic copper will open that much, a ballistic tip is going to be a whole lot better! To my eye there is just no comparison as to ease of opening between the E-Tip and Accubond.

edge.

It would seem that the AB bullet would open easier than the E-Tip, but the E-Tip's cavity may help a lot. Also if friction heat does soften the jacket the AB has a thinner *jacket* which might give it an advantage downrange. But the E-Tip's better BC gives it a few (40) yards more opening range. Picking at straws now. They probably both warrant testing.

 

[edge]

While I have heard that friction can soften a lead bullet, I am very very skeptical! Bore friction may allow gas cutting, but air friction does not make sense to me.

I suspect that the Plastic Ballistic Tip will become soft at under 400 degrees F, perhaps even melt. I have recovered numerous Plastic tips from animals and they almost look as if they could be reused!

If Plastic does not melt, the Copper can't be getting hot enough to make it open quicker...IMO

edge.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

If Plastic does not melt, the Copper can't be getting hot enough to make it open quicker...IMO

edge.

You make a good point, but... will the jacket heat enough to unfold @ 1600 fps vs 1800 fps?

This prompted me to do a search and I found this. I think it's interesting.

Calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin literally pulls heat away from the Blended Metal Technology (BMT) bullet as the bullet passes through it. This results in the BMT bullet remaining intact, and not going frangible like it would in living tissue. Live/living tissue, with its much higher temparature, has a totally different effect on the Le Mas/RBCD BMT rounds. A living body's heat is the necessary mechanism for the LeMas/RBCD Blended Metal Technology (BMT) SPLP bullet to deploy as it was designed to do.

Defense Review - Le Mas Ltd. Blended Metal Technology Ammo vs. ADS Transparent Armor: AFJI Video!

Maybe this is why we see better than advertised bullet performance in game?

 

[edge]

If I assume that heat is pulled away vs the heat of the work involved, then perhaps the tooth fairy is real!

I don't belittle you, but I do find that work suspect!

IMO, +- 30 degrees will make a bullet stay together or come apart, that defies the laws of physics. IMO, that would completely nullify Ballistic Gelatin's use.

edge.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I'm not a PHD in physics but I do know the basics. I'm just trying to figure out why hunters in the field are getting different expansion results than the manufacturers in with their test procedures.

Nosler advertises an expansion vel of 1800 fps for bith the E-Tip and the AB. In the picture of the E-Tip, we can see it barely opened at 1800. I would think the same would be true of the AB. IF the AB actaully opened at 1600 fps or less, I would think Nosler would advertise that because it would be a good selling point in a competitive market. So my question is, what's the diff?

I'm just guessing.

The video in the article above is very interesting. Those particular bullets will penetrate steel armor intact but come apart when shot through drywall. One would think just the opposite with a *basic* knowledge of physics. They clain it's about different heat transfer properties. Very interesting.

 

[Pdvdh]

MontanaRifleman,

I don't think it's realistic to hold Nosler to 1800 fps on the money. I believe Nosler has provided their best estimate of the velocity required to ensure expansion on big game animals. They don't say their bullets will never open up at 1799 fps, 1699 fps, or 1599 fps. There's a lot of different mixtures of bone, muscle, hide, blood, and guts in any animal. I believe where you hit them will play a significant role in an expanding bullets performance. Again, I believe Nosler's trying to give us their best guidance and recommendation, and they've picked a number that won't result in a bunch of dissatisfied customers. Which means you'll be pretty safe at 1800 fps. Go less than 1800 fps and get poor performance and Nosler will say they warned you. Just my 0.02 cents worth of thoughts on the matter.

And just to demonstrate that there are no guarantees with expanding bullet performance, I shot a Dall sheep at 13 yards with a .280 RCBS improved using a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip straight through the middle of the ribs and lungs and that bullet never expanded with a muzzle velocity of ~2975 fps. Go figure. The animal trotted off 80-100 yds and bedded down and got sicker and sicker but didn't expire. After about 25 minutes, I'd seen enough. I kept thinking the animal had to expire because I saw the red blood dots in perfect position on both sides of the ribs for a double lung shot. I walked down to finish him off and when I got within about 10 yds he jumped up in an adrenaline rush and took off. My second shot was a quartering away shot into the back edge of the onside ribs. That BT expanded and flattened the ram like a piledriver. Instant lights out.

 

[edge]

IMO, shooting a bullet at steel almost always results in a splat or an almost perfectly round hole.
I bet that the steel being so tough, surrounds the bullet and tends to hold it in a columnar shape as it drives straight through.
The drywall, on the other hand has no such compressive ability.

I don't think that I can stabilize the AB at low velocity since my rifle is a 1:14 twist. Perhaps when the weather breaks here I can try to shoot a reduced load into wet newspaper. If I can launch it at 1500 fps and it is stable that would be about 750 ft/lbs.
If it hits nose first I guess we will have our answer.

edge.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

phorwath, true, I wouldn't expect *identical* results everytime, but opening at 1600 fps vs 1800 fps is significant in my book. In the case of GG's story, the elk was first shot in the neck and I'm assuming no bone was hit, because if bone was hit, it would have dropped instantly.

Your story of the dall sheep is very interesting and sounds like an anomoly, especiall for a ballistic tip. My expeiences with bullets have been consistant, having used 7mm 160 partitions almost always. Little hole going in, little bigger hole going out.

I'm trying to determine some predictable results. I would much rather shoot at an animal being confident that the bullet will perform well than just hoping maybe it will. It may be that experience with shooting lesser game like antelope and coyotes will be my ultimate proving ground.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I don't think that I can stabilize the AB at low velocity since my rifle is a 1:14 twist. Perhaps when the weather breaks here I can try to shoot a reduced load into wet newspaper. If I can launch it at 1500 fps and it is stable that would be about 750 ft/lbs.
If it hits nose first I guess we will have our answer.

edge.

That would be an interesting test. I thought about doing it myself, but I was thinking of doing downrange which would better simulate actual conditions. A comparrison would also be interesting. The only thing is that paper offers a little more resistance. I saw some pics of a guy who test TSX'x, BT's and E-Tips at 3100 fps into phone books, The TSX penetrated 15 inches and the BT and E-Tip penetrated 11 and 12. If shot at game the TSX at that vel would probably pass clean through 2 elk side by side, a lot more than 15 inches.

 

[edge]

Very true, perhaps we need X number of phone books = 1 elk conversion and then we can correlate 1/2 X phone books = 1 medium whitetail

edge.

 

[Pdvdh]

Your story of the dall sheep is very interesting and sounds like an anomoly, especially for a ballistic tip. My experiences with bullets have been consistant, having used 7mm 160 partitions almost always. Little hole going in, little bigger hole going out.

I have yet to even hear of a Nosler Partition failing to expand, let alone experienced it myself. I have my own experience with the Ballistic Tip on the dall sheep, I was present with a hunting partner when he had a Ballistic Tip fail to open on a black bear which we recovered with a couple additional shots, and other hunters have told me of other Ballistic Tip failures to expand. I can't explain why - Only the after the kill facts.

I've shot a few animals with Accubonds and no failures to report with them yet. I killed a bull caribou at 849 yards with the 7mm 160 Accubonds last fall and both recovered bullets expanded. Muzzle velocity at impact should have been right at Nosler's recommended 1800 fps.

 

[esshup]

I believe that the medium that is on the receiving end of the bullet has a lot to do with how it expands as well. I've shot TSX's into damp sand, and then into a couple of gallon milk jugs filled with water at the same speed and distance. The bullets that entered the water expanded just like they are supposed to, and the sand seemed to pack the nose cavity so tightly that they mostly acted like solids. The ones that didn't had partial petal opening, maybe 50%. 25 cal. impact velocity 3000 - 3100 fps.

On the other hand, I had a 25 cal NBT impact a whitetail doe in the ribs @ 80 yds - again 3000 - 3100 fps and while she expired within 100 Yds, there was no exit wound, and no blood trail except for the last 10 feet. I have never used the Berger VLD's on game but that's only because I couldn't get a load to shoot less than 1.5 MOA @ 100 Yds. I like the Barnes TSX's because I've had really good performance from them, but I'm searching for a better BC bullet that will exit both sides of a deer (Weatherby .257 Mag) if the deer happens to get close.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I believe that the medium that is on the receiving end of the bullet has a lot to do with how it expands as well. I've shot TSX's into damp sand, and then into a couple of gallon milk jugs filled with water at the same speed and distance. The bullets that entered the water expanded just like they are supposed to, and the sand seemed to pack the nose cavity so tightly that they mostly acted like solids.

Yup, there seems to be a lot of variables in bullet performance. I think the best way to figure this out is to shoot actual critters at the actual ranges.