Load work for Ruger 270 Win, for Elk

[Lefty7mmstw]

Very good observation on the sectional density, we've pushed the 130's out to 500 yards and that's right were things are getting sketchy and we've started loading the 140 Berger at 3050's and they are GTG in that range. Interesting this is the 165 start crapping out at the same range, I put a lot more faith in sectional density than energy figures!!!!
I think the 150 Matrix should be a good bullet for hammering elk, I was going to order some but after finding out the 165's stabilized and we put a dozen on elk there just isn't anything else I would put in a 270 for elk unless they wouldn't stabilize. I've found them very easy going to load and to top it of every rifle we have loaded them in has shot them better than anything else, my buddies shoots in the .2's at 2835fps with the 165 and destroys elk!!!
I would push them harder but at 2900 they'll rock an elk gun)

Kudos on that. I think with similar velocities SD is as good a measure as any on penetrating ability, but if you crank it up, say in a 7mm ultra, all bets are off. You may get another 100-200 yards of usable range, but the bullet may get soft on you.
I shot my longest two offhand (no bench or bags) kills over 600 and over 700(yards) with a 7mm ultra using a 140 sierra fb and rl25 with a 215. Didn't gps those shots, and they were most likely farther as I did take other measurements and round down. That rifle was a laser and if the barrel hadn't gone, I'd still be killing with it.

 

[Roughwater]

Big green, thanks for the extra info on the 165 Matrix Hunting VLD's.

I did buy some 165's but thought maybe a bonded bullet, as are the 150's would be the safer bet on a bullet I've never hunted with. Also figured I'd work with the 150's first and see how that went.
I have already loaded a few 150's to try in the 270 and WSM so I'll go ahead and load a few 165's also prior to going to the range both for the 270 Win and WSM and see how that goes.

My one concern about the VLD bullet is with close range. Have you or any of your friends taken any Elk at close range with the 165 VLD's? Does it hold together well enough at close range velocities to do the job?

Well, I best get working on those bullets.

 

[bigngreen]

We took elk from 85 yards to 865 yards last year with the 165 Matrix from either 270 wins or 270 WSM. The closest was a 300 class bull that my buddy caught trying to get out the back door, he hit him high with a heavy quartering angle and crushed three vertebra to pulp but did not exit, the bull was trying to lift his head up so he shot him in neck and that hit destroyed a lot of bone, his neck looked like a grenade went of under the skin. While the bullets did not exit the sectional density carried the bullet well into the elk, I'm not afraid of hitting bone on elk up close with them but you put them behind the shoulder and they are awesome!!
I shot the bull at 865 with my WSM, first bullet caught him a little back and got the liver an the back side of one lung, he took the hit hard and was only able to move a couple stumble steps but I put a second one through his lower shoulder, piled him up! The first bullet opened nice making a perfect wound channel, I really didn't need a second shot, the second bullet went through the heavy lower shoulder bone breaking in nicely and putting a good wound channel through the front of the lungs and exited out the front of the of shoulder, both bullets exited with a 1.5+ exit hole. I would not hesitate on an elk inside 1100 yards with my WSM and the 165 Matrix, at my elevation anyway.

I shot some whitetail doe's at around 200 yards with the WSM to see how they would do and the performance was stellar, first doe's heart was MIA and the second one with a heavy quartering put a 2in hole clean through her, with all bullet exiting.

The sectional density is king on elk IMO, I've shot a pile of elk with a 300 WBY and 165 Barnes but my 270 WSM with a 165 Matrix is much better on elk and at a much longer range!!!
The Matrix bonded 150 would be a solid choice I think for elk, I'd be shooting it if I couldn't stabilize the heavier bullets, fortunately we are at 6000+ft and they shoot from our 1-10 twists very well.

 

[winmag]

I've seen many positive reports from qualified Elk hunters & long range shooters like bigngreen, & Broz.
But I've seen just as many horror stories from hunters, & shooters just as qualified.
IMO there is absolutely no reason to chance it with a fragile VLD at your said range. If you are gonna stretch it waaaaay out there, then by all means use the VLD. You can benefit from less wind drift, & more retained energy & repeatable, low velocity expansion. Plus your target rarely knows your there, so you have time to choose your perfect broadside shot.
But at a 0-600 ish yard Elk rifle to me means the critter isn't always broadside, it isn't always standing still, it has a lot better chance of knowing your in the area than at "long range" so for me, there's no way on this earth I'm gonna use a bullet that comes apart. I personally think your logic in being hesitant to use the VLD is very sound, & shows your on the right track.

VLD's have thier place. They are proven performers in dedicated LR rifles, & have the BC to buck the wind, & retain thier energy at long range.

I'm an "oportunist" type spot & stock hunter. I'm not too proud to smoke a bull at 20 yards at a severely quarreling angle, but I like to be able to stretch its legs a bit too. Picking the propper bullet for your hunting style, & intended game is a double edged sword.
I'm in the camp that will give up some range, & BC for a tougher bonded bullet, because of how I hunt. If I were shooting dedicated LR only, & wanted to squeeze every extra yard out of my rifle id be in the Berger camp.
Then again, if I were in the ELR game it'd be a big 338, not my 270WSM or my 300WSM. I have self imposed limits on those rifles due to my opinion of using the propper tool for the task at hand with the bullet I choose to use. BC, SD, Energy, Velocity, & my personally imposed "insurance -or- fudge factor". These personal limitations somewhat restrict my range, but I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that when I pull the trigger, my bullet what it takes to get the job done, & more at the ranges I shoot. I don't have bullet failures. Shooter error is the only thing left to blame.

There is no right or wrong answer here. It's strictly a personal choice based on personal criteria. You define your criteria, & decide what's acceptable terminal performance for said parameters.

 

[winmag]

Ok, now I'm confused.
I just hit the submit button, & bigngreen had already commented during my painfully long chicken pecking typing style.... Hmm, go figure
I know you've got a lot of experience with both Matrix, & Berger BnG, & plenty of dead elk to back up any opinion you form into a post, but I'm getting all turnned around here trying to figure out what's what when I reply to a post. guess I'm kind of a re-tread sometimes
Matrix bullets are bonded right? Is thier 150 considered a VLD? Or am I reading half a post talking Matrix, & half a post talking Berger VLD's & being hesitant? Maybe I should go back & re-read the post asking the question about VLD's.... Grrrrrrr.
I'm going back to an Amish phone, & taking a brake from technology.....AGAIN.... I'll check back in at a later date boys.

 

[bigngreen]

Ok, now I'm confused.
I just hit the submit button, & bigngreen had already commented during my painfully long chicken pecking typing style.... Hmm, go figure
I know you've got a lot of experience with both Matrix, & Berger BnG, & plenty of dead elk to back up any opinion you form into a post, but I'm getting all turnned around here trying to figure out what's what when I reply to a post. guess I'm kind of a re-tread sometimes
Matrix bullets are bonded right? Is thier 150 considered a VLD? Or am I reading half a post talking Matrix, & half a post talking Berger VLD's & being hesitant? Maybe I should go back & re-read the post asking the question about VLD's.... Grrrrrrr.
I'm going back to an Amish phone, & taking a brake from technology.....AGAIN.... I'll check back in at a later date boys.

Haa, Matrix has a full line of bullets, the hunting bullets are a bonded, in the .277 they have a 130, 140 and 150 flat base, they also have a 130 and 150 bonded rebated boat tail. Then you have the 165 and 175 VLD which is not bonded but has so much SD it drives deep and reams a hole, I don't think I could go back to bonded bullets gun)

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Just get the rifle and see if it likes the Matrix before we all get your head spinning. gun)gun)gun)gun)gun)gun)
If it hates the Matrix. you could just forget the lead and go with a barnes or gmx. You wouldn't have to worry about the thing holding together then. Heck, the few hornady's and sierra's I've gotten from mule deer have all held 60% or better( shot from mag cartridges), so they will do in a 140 or 150 grain too in your 270. Most of my kills have been pass throughs, even in bigger bucks.
I like the sleek match stuff too, but when I want to look through the critter after I've dumped the guts, I don't use those, ever.

 

[Roughwater]

Hey WinMag, appreciate you chiming in. You do have a good point.

In short, right now I'm working up loads for the Matrix RBT (a bonded bullet) at 150 gn and the 165 gn Matrix hunting VLD bullet.

our goal is to be able to take an Elk with one of these bullets out to 500 yards but we will attempt to get as close as possible of course. We would only shoot to 500 yards in a rare instance where we could get no closer.

But Big Green's confidence in the 165 VLD's however has spilled over on me some so I'll see if I can make them work on paper first. My first attempt with the 165 VLD today with the 270 winny didn't go real well. 60gn of Magpro just netted me an average of 2580 FPS. Two rounds were within an 1' of each other but the 3rd round was a flyer at about 3" from the other 2 rounds.
After loading these first few rounds and testing I'm beginning to think maybe top end on these 165's would be 2700FPS at best with this rifle and that's pushing it beyond max published loads. I'm not giving up yet.

I did get a decent group of 1" and OK velocity (2660 average) out of my 270 WSM with 66 gn of Magpro. If I can bump that up to about 2800+- FPS with good accuracy I think I'll go with the 165.

We've been waiting on the completion of the Colorado draw to see what area we get. We had no preference points but based on previous years, odds appear to be in our favor of getting our first choice for the Elk 1st rifle season. But we did put in for 3 other GMU's should we not get our first choice. June 4th is when they say the results will be available on-line. Seems like it's been a long wait but only a couple weeks to go.

Terry

 

[bigngreen]

If your rifle don't like the Matrix there are a lot of good bullet that will do you good in that range, I try not to get to excited about the Matrix bullets but man when you see bull after bull nose dive and internal organ are shredded it's hard to not get jacked

 

[Roughwater]

Maybe some hope after all for my 270 Win and the 165 gn Matrix. I loaded one bullet this evening but before doing so I went back and looked at the load that shot well with the 150gn matrix and copied some of the elements of that load. I used a WLRM primer, Norma brass trimmed to 2.535
61gn of Magpro with the bullet set about .082 off the lands. Put a brand new battery in the Master Beta Shooting Chrony and got a reading of 2828 FPS!!
. I couldn't believe it. In my last post it was looking like I wouldn't get above 2700 FPS. I do not recommend anyone using this load however without starting from a min load and gradually working up as this I'm sure is a max or greater load for most 270's. This 270 though I don't guess read the loading manuals.

Now I need to load a few of this formula and see if they really fly this fast or if it was a one shot fluke and see if they group at the same time. Of course this load may shoot like crap in my partner's gun but at least it shows it may be do-able in a sporter rifle. I always like puting together workable hunting loads for my rifles anyway and hopefully this will be one of those.

For what it's worth I'm not against using other bullets too. I really like the Barnes TTSX's. It's a really tough bullet and expands well and penetrates extreamly well. The 150 gn version gets pretty long as it's copper and a 9/1 twist is recomended. I suppose it's not any longer than this 165 grainer though. Anyway, I got some loading to do.

Terry

 

[Roughwater]

Thanks to all who contributed their thoughts here.

I loaded up 6 more bullets yesterday and went to the range today and had better success with these bullets than I even expected at this point in time.

Three of the Matrix 165gn hunting VLD bullets were shot from the 270 winchester and they shot great! However the first bullet hit my difuser for the chrony and who knows where it went but the other 2 bullets were touching. The load was the same one from my last post and indeed they averaged over 2800 FPS (2810 FPS). Not super velocity but I checked a Ballistic Calculater and it will have quite a bit more energy and Velocity than a average 140 gr bullet with a MV of 3000 FPS at 4 and 5 hundred yards.

That load was from once or more fired Norma cases trimmed to 2.536 and neck sized only with a bump neck bushing die with 61 Gn of Magpro powder and the bullet was set at .085 from the lands. WLRM primers were used. I tried in some prevouse loads Federal Gold medal Match Magnum primers but they didn't seem to work well with the Magpro powder. I think the Magpro needs the hottest primer you can find. Keep in mind this is an unpublished load and most likely too hot for some rifles so start around 58 grains and slowly work up.

The other 3 rounds were for the 270 WSM and they shot OK at 1 1/8" 3 round group at an average of 2915 FPS but that was with new full length sized norma brass trimmed to 2.092. With a little tweaking I am sure I can trim that group down somewhat.

I'm good with the velocity for both these rifles with the Magpro powder but I'll probably expierment with some other powders too. I don't know how the Magpro will do in Cold weather so I'll expeirment with some slower burning of the Extreme powders like H1000 etc to see if I can come close to the same numbers with these sporter rifles.

Terry

 

[winmag]

So you got the 165's to stabilize in whatever North Carolina has for elevation above sea level. I was curious if it could be done at low elevation, & at spring time temperature. Very Cool! Are both your rigs 10 twist barrels, or are they spun tighter?
Congrats, & sorry to here about your chrono.
Keep us updated.

 

[Roughwater]

So you got the 165's to stabilize in whatever North Carolina has for elevation above sea level. I was curious if it could be done at low elevation, & at spring time temperature. Very Cool! Are both your rigs 10 twist barrels, or are they spun tighter?
Congrats, & sorry to here about your chrono.
Keep us updated.

Winmag,

Yep, got them to stabilize at maybe 500 ft elevation or somewhere near that.
Yes, both rigs are 10 twist barrels. The chrony wasn't really hurt, just nicked the bottom of one of the defussers, didn't even break it, so it's all good. I have some etras anyway that are better made than these newer one's are.
I just took the other one off after that and it seemed to display the velocities fine without them on.

Terry

 

[Roughwater]

I just wanted to do a little update here.

My friend and I finally got together at the range today and shot some 270 Winchester, 165 gr Matrix Hunting VLD bullets in his Ruger with 22" barrel that I had reloaded for him. I reloaded 9 bullets in 3 shot groups with 56.8 gn of IMR 7828, 61 Gr of RL-25 (slightly compressed) and 60.5 gn of Magpro.

The Magpro had the best group of the 3 by far at 1/2" and averaged 2680 FPS. The question was asked prevously by someone if the big 165 gn 270 matrix VLD bullet would stabilize near sea level with a over the counter, ten twist sporting rifle and I gotta say now the answer is a definite "YES".

The RL-25 was was slightly compressed and velocity averaged around 2700 fps but with being compressed already not much hope of getting more velocity.

With both my 270 Winchester and his Ruger 270, so far the most promising loads have been with the Magpro. I see no pressure signs with this load so I believe it can be bumped up another .5 grains in his rifle to 61 gn of Magpro.

I have alreaday shot my 270 with 61.5 gn and it did show some signs of mild pressure so that may be the max for my rifle but velocity was over 2800 FPS and accuracy still good.

Again, I don't recommend anyone use these loads without starting much and working up.

I have my friends Ruger rifle now and I'll do a little more testing this coming week with additional loads especially with the magpro and report my results here.

Terry