LEE press cant get same oal

[Barrelnut]

why cant i get the same coal
some are 0.28mm shorter (0.01 inch)

whats my problem
i have lee singel press
lee pacesetter dies
clean dies

brass is wiped

I've had this caused by inconsistent neck tension. This can happen if you are seating bullets into brass cases that have different loaded/fired counts on the brass. Like mixing brass that has been fired two times with brass that has been fired five times. try annealing the necks, it might go away. Works for me. Otherwise you have to back off the seater and seat the bullet in increments and measuring each time to get them all close to the same.

 

[SidecarFlip]

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world."

First quoted by Archimedes around 225BC. Charles Atlas made several memorable quotes, but not that one.

I know seating depth to some point is the query, but it's married to bullet jump distance.

Pardon me, I forgot the fulcrum and Archimedes was way before my time. Charlie wasn't.

It is but variance can be mitigated by the controlled application of force, IOW, a constant and repetitive force is more accurate in control.

I've never claimed to be as leaned as you on the discrete mechanics of loading. I'm a backyard loader with a bit of luck and some degree of knowledge in mechanics as it relates to loading practices.... Nothing more.

 

[engineer40]

Pardon me, I forgot the fulcrum and Archimedes was way before my time. Charlie wasn't.

It is but variance can be mitigated by the controlled application of force, IOW, a constant and repetitive force is more accurate in control.

I've never claimed to be as leaned as you on the discrete mechanics of loading. I'm a backyard loader with a bit of luck and some degree of knowledge in mechanics as it relates to loading practices.... Nothing more.

I'm taking a wild guess in the dark here at where some of your mechanical knowledge comes from... my hypothesis is you work for one of the Big 3?

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'm taking a wild guess in the dark here at where some of your mechanical knowledge comes from... my hypothesis is you work for one of the Big 3?

Not exactly. I own and operate a short run machine and fabrication shop, so, being here in Michigan, some of my customers are automotive related but that is a small (and a PITA) segment of my business.... I like to keep it that way.....

I really don't like dealing with the auto industry as a sub contractor. Slow pay and wants everything right now.... Somehow the terms 'right now' and 'slow pay' don't mingle well......

We do fabrication and fit up in exotic metals mostly along with short run machining jobs mostly.

Keeps me outta my wife's hair and provides a living for my dedicated and long time employees.

I'm pretty much hands off now, slightly retired and enjoying myself, hunting and fiddling around.

I'd say I have a pretty good working knowledge of the mechanics involved in presses and things like that. I have a small tryout press in the shop for die work. It's only a 15 ton, but then I also own a hydraulic arbor press for broaching and assorted stuff. It's a 30 ton.

Been kicking around building an attachment for the broaching press so I can squeeze apples for cider in the fall.....

 

[CA48]

I have a Lee Classic Cast with Lee dies. I have never noticed .005 in variance of COAL; measured with the Hornady tool. But I have noticed up to .003 difference (but not all the time) for some reason when I load with Nosler Custom Competition bullets. When I use the Hornady A-Max's there's virtually no difference at all in COAL. It's amazingly consistent.

So I've chalked the Nosler COAL differences up to the internal shape of the bullet seating die, but I could be wrong. I mean, unless the Noslers are really varying that much at the ogive, which is hard to believe.

I also have the Hornady gauges, The variance in seating depth seems to be play in the press. With freshly annealed brass and consistent neck tension my results are the same. I can take my dies and components over to my buddy's rockchucker and get my seating depth within .001. Something else that has thrown my seating depth off is having a standard seating plug when a VLD plug is required. It causes the bullet to bottom out in the seater plug.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I also have the Hornady gauges, The variance in seating depth seems to be play in the press. With freshly annealed brass and consistent neck tension my results are the same. I can take my dies and components over to my buddy's rockchucker and get my seating depth within .001. Something else that has thrown my seating depth off is having a standard seating plug when a VLD plug is required. It causes the bullet to bottom out in the seater plug.

Are you sure it's bottoming out or is that something you surmise? The only way to really tell if the VLD you are loading is bottoming in the seater plug is by applying some Dykem blue to the bullet and seating it. If it is, the blue will be removed at the tip of the pill, if it isn't removed, it isn't bottoming. If it is (bottoming), then remove the plug and open the center up with an appropriate sized drill bit. Issue solved and no need for a new seater plug.

I agree, far as rigidity as it's relates deflection in applied force, some presses are better than others, all the robust C frame presses fare better than the lighter ones and the presses that employ machined steel rod uprights to carry the upper casting fare better than even the biggest C frame presses.

They all deflect though and thats the main reason I'm opposed to the SOP of 'camming over' when sizing. Camming over is deliberately stressing the press frame.

Commercial presses don't 'cam over'. What makes a reloading press any different....

 

[CA48]

Are you sure it's bottoming out or is that something you surmise? The only way to really tell if the VLD you are loading is bottoming in the seater plug is by applying some Dykem blue to the bullet and seating it. If it is, the blue will be removed at the tip of the pill, if it isn't removed, it isn't bottoming. If it is (bottoming), then remove the plug and open the center up with an appropriate sized drill bit. Issue solved and no need for a new seater plug.

Yes, when I was having the issue I ordered a new seater plug which solved my problem.

 

[ohiohunter]

I've had this caused by inconsistent neck tension. This can happen if you are seating bullets into brass cases that have different loaded/fired counts on the brass. Like mixing brass that has been fired two times with brass that has been fired five times. try annealing the necks, it might go away. Works for me. Otherwise you have to back off the seater and seat the bullet in increments and measuring each time to get them all close to the same.

Boom... I can't believe it took 2pages for the answer and they are still talking about measuring tools.

I started getting variations in seating after a few firings using norma brass but then started annealing... wala... no more issue.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Thats another can of worms however. I wonder how many loaders anneal corectly, at the proper temperature, for the correct duration and actually check the annealed case mouth properly.....

One reason I don't ever use an expander ball in any die. No reason to overwork the brass and accelerate workhardening of the neck in the first place. IMO, expander balls need to stay in the die box in all but rare cases.

 

[engineer40]

Thats another can of worms however. I wonder how many loaders anneal corectly, at the proper temperature, for the correct duration and actually check the annealed case mouth properly.....

One reason I don't ever use an expander ball in any die. No reason to overwork the brass and accelerate workhardening of the neck in the first place. IMO, expander balls need to stay in the die box in all but rare cases.

What are you giving up by not using the expander ball? I have read about this quite often but have yet to take any of mine out and test for myself. Thanks.

 

[SidecarFlip]

What are you giving up by not using the expander ball? I have read about this quite often but have yet to take any of mine out and test for myself. Thanks.

When resizing fired brass, removal of the ball and/or decapping pin (I use a dedicated decap die instead, RCBS/Lee, Redding) sells one), the round, because it has been fired and the pill has already expanded the neck a bit don't need the expander ball to resize to correct neck dimension.

All the expander ball does is expand the neck even more, while the die resizes the neck to the bushing diameter or in the case of a fixed chamber die, to the set neck dimension (and the brass will already be larger in diameter than the die neck dimension already.

Consequently, the ball ;works' the brass and the neck of the die works it again.

Removing the ball only works the brass one time....in the die neck and working brass causes it to workharden so why overwork it and promote workhardened necks and subsequent annealing? No reason.

The only time I see an expander ball being used is on OF brass from a source other than your rifle, example: 223 OFMB where you want to resize to a consant neck dimension. I use an expander ball (the first time) for that.

less working equals less annealing. Thats the reason why I remove them.

An underlying reason (that the average reloader don't take into account is that in most dies, it's difficult to center the decap stem / expander ball concentric to it's relationship to the die bore iteself (flip your dies over and rotate them and observe the decap stem / expander ball runout, most likely, it will be very apparent.

That runout equates to the expander ball entering the brass at an angle and literally cocking the neck a bit as it passes through, imparting the runout to the neck, which, the neck size part of the die has to correct (hopefully), adding to the workhardening.

It is possible to float the expander ball / decapping stem like John Whidden does with his dies but he's the only one I've ever seen that does.

The ball is optional in most cases and it's redundant.

Having stated that, I do keep my brass segregated by firearm so the brass is only fired in one particular gun.

Excuse the spelling errors, my spell check is on the fritz today.....

 

[jmd025]

When resizing fired brass, removal of the ball and/or decapping pin (I use a dedicated decap die instead, RCBS/Lee, Redding) sells one), the round, because it has been fired and the pill has already expanded the neck a bit don't need the expander ball to resize to correct neck dimension.

All the expander ball does is expand the neck even more, while the die resizes the neck to the bushing diameter or in the case of a fixed chamber die, to the set neck dimension (and the brass will already be larger in diameter than the die neck dimension already.

Consequently, the ball ;works' the brass and the neck of the die works it again.

Removing the ball only works the brass one time....in the die neck and working brass causes it to workharden so why overwork it and promote workhardened necks and subsequent annealing? No reason.

The only time I see an expander ball being used is on OF brass from a source other than your rifle, example: 223 OFMB where you want to resize to a consant neck dimension. I use an expander ball (the first time) for that.

less working equals less annealing. Thats the reason why I remove them.

An underlying reason (that the average reloader don't take into account is that in most dies, it's difficult to center the decap stem / expander ball concentric to it's relationship to the die bore iteself (flip your dies over and rotate them and observe the decap stem / expander ball runout, most likely, it will be very apparent.

That runout equates to the expander ball entering the brass at an angle and literally cocking the neck a bit as it passes through, imparting the runout to the neck, which, the neck size part of the die has to correct (hopefully), adding to the workhardening.

It is possible to float the expander ball / decapping stem like John Whidden does with his dies but he's the only one I've ever seen that does.

The ball is optional in most cases and it's redundant.

Having stated that, I do keep my brass segregated by firearm so the brass is only fired in one particular gun.

Excuse the spelling errors, my spell check is on the fritz today.....

I agree with you here, but you dont address fixed dimension (standard ) sizing dies that size the neck down "too much" when the expander ball isnt present , to the point that the projectile is hard to seat, shaves, or even cant seat. This can be a die to die thing, and the remedy as im sure you know, is honing the neck area of the die to your spec'd size for the brass thickness you are using , much the same as we select bushings for bushing sizers.

Just thought i'd toss it out there before everyone goes and pulls thier expanders. See what the die actually sizes the neck down to without it, i have a few dies that are way too tight for the situation im using them in. I have a few dies about to head off to Forster for honing too the same spec as my bushing dies

 

[SidecarFlip]

Anytime I post anything concerning reloading methodology, I assume the reader practices due diligence....

IOW, what works for me, may not apply to you.

Why you'll never see me comment on the typical 'What do you recommend for powder and weight to load blah, blah, blah...'

I don't do that simply because what works for me, may very well blow up in your face and/or find those cross drilled holes in your receiver that let the fire out....

I don't 'select' bushings, I make my own, always have. I've never purchased one commercially, they are so simple to make so long as you have the tools and the knowledge, much like reloading...

I could post pages and pages of methodology, I was only replying to Engineer 40 as to why I never mount an expander ball, nothing more.

As always, your mileage may vary.....

 

[jmd025]

Ok . It wasn't meant as a challenge to your skill... It was meant as an additional tidbit for the readers who may not know , to combat their issues when they jerk the expander out of their off the shelf RCBS FL sizer after reading a comment by someone they feel is "in the know" , aka you , that expanders are worthless and the plague . And I agreed with you .... With the caveat that if your die dimensions are grossly tight in the neck , pulling the expander is more trouble than leaving it in .


I applaud and envy your ability to churn out your own bushings , forgive me for offending you by saying "select" .... What 90% of the reloading population most likely does . I guess somewhere the lines got blurred that I was talking AT you vs adding a potentially helpful thought