Lee Collet Dies vs Redding S bushing dies

[woods]

[ QUOTE ]
I also like the the Lee Collet dies. I also have a couple rifles that need to be ran through a FL die after ever firing. My question is could Lee or any other die manf. build a collet die that could FL the brass? That would great!!! Moe

[/ QUOTE ]

For each caliber I load for I have a box with 4 dies in it.

Lee Collet Neck Sizer
Redding Body Die
RCBS Competition Seater
Lee Factory Crimp Die

When the cases get tight on about the 3rd or 4th loading, I use the Redding Body Die to PFLR and push the shoulder back .001". The body die will have to be used for each successive reloading on those cases. Works great for me and I have not noticed any difference in accuracy between PFLR and neck sizing.

Along with a thorough steel wooling of the inside of the necks after sizing, I feel like the Lee Collet and the Lee Factory Crimp (light crimp only) lead to consistant bullet release. Just my way of doing it.

Also, on some long necked cases like the 30-06 or 270 I put a washer around the case on top of the shell holder when using the Lee Collet Die. This leaves a portion of the neck - that is the thickness of the washer - fire formed to the chamber and centers the neck by contact. Seems to reduce brass life though.

 

[THOMAST]

woods, what kind of runout do you have on your bullets, once they have been seated in your cases?

 

[woods]

[ QUOTE ]
woods, what kind of runout do you have on your bullets, once they have been seated in your cases?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did an OCW sequence on a batch of 300 win mag case using H1000 and the 200 gr Accubond recently. These cases were Norma, outside neck turned, PFLR with the body die, Lee Collet Neck sized. The runout <font color="red"> on the bullet </font> just before the ogive started was:

1ea @ .0000" (needle didn't move)
2ea @ .0005"
7ea @ .001"
3ea @ .0015"
4ea @ .002"
1ea @ .0025"

Without outside neck turning, it depends on the type of brass. With Norma which I normally use I get a consistant .0015" to .002" <font color="red"> on the case </font> with the Lee Collet without the neck turning.

IMO, once you get rid of all the .005" plus runouts like you get with a FL die, then improvements in accuracy are hard to define.

I have one Redding Type S Bushing Style Neck Sizing Die, but it yielded a consistant .007" runout on the case. Went back immediately to the Lee Collet and haven't tried any more of them. Maybe I got a bad one.

 

[highflyer]

CP

I have to take issue with your tone here. You seem hell bent on Redding Dies no matter what.

All of the positive points stated here about Lee Collet Dies I wholeheartedly agree with. While I appreciate the quality of the Redding dies, (I own several,) when it comes to the Lee Collet Die they simply work and work well.

The Redding bushing dies transfer bad runout to the inside diameter of the case neck, while the Lee Collet Die places the lack of concentricity to the outside and leaves the inside diameter a mirror image of the mandrel, which has no runout.

I have a 20 year old Ruger bolt gun in 30-06 with the only modifications being reduced trigger pull and a glass bedding job. After discovering the collet die, this gun became a boringly consistent 3/4 minute of angle shooter. It is a bit of an effort to remove all of the copper fouling but in the woods it's a whitetail's worst nightmare.

 

[woods]

Hey highflyer, welcome to LRH

Don't know if Centre Punch is still around after 4 years and he may have changed his mind in that time. I know I hate it when I prove myself wrong but I have changed my mind about some things with time. Not the Lee Collets though.

I'm sure he meant no offense. Here at Long Range Hunting is where I come to get away from internet brawls and there is nowhere else you can get the depth of case prep knowledge. But it takes all kinds of information and opinions to hash out an issue.

 

[Clark]

I have a Sinclair concentricity gauge.
I did some comparisons of various .223 dies I had, using a different population of 22 cases selected at random for each die. Here is the raw data:

Quantity of 22 Brass LC93 cases fired in unknown AR15
Brass vibrate cleaned
Neck size and decap in Lee Collet
Size in Forster FL with .246" honed neck
Brass trimmed to 1.750", and chamfered
60 gr HNDY TAP .224 soft point moly bullet, 25 gr Bulk Surplus IMR4895 [acts like H322]
Seated with Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die 2.26" OAL
average run out = .00094"

Quantity of 22 Brass LC93 cases fired in unknown AR15
Brass vibrate cleaned
Size in Forster FL with .246" honed neck
Neck size and decap in Lee Collet
Brass trimmed to 1.750", and chamfered
60 gr HNDY TAP .224 soft point moly bullet, 25 gr Bulk Surplus IMR4895 [acts like H322]
Seated with Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die 2.26" OAL
average run out = .00107"


Quantity of 22 Brass LC93 cases fired in unknown AR15
Brass vibrate cleaned
Size in Forster FL with .246" honed neck
Lee decapping die
Brass trimmed to 1.750", and chamfered
60 gr HNDY TAP .224 soft point moly bullet, 25 gr Bulk Surplus IMR4895 [acts like H322]
Seated with Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die 2.26" OAL
average run out = .00096"
5/22 had loose necks, slip fit on .224" bullet, bullet held by neck base donut


Quantity of 22 Brass LC93 cases fired in unknown AR15
Brass vibrate cleaned
Size in Redding "S" FL with .246" bushing
Lee decapping die
Brass trimmed to 1.750", and chamfered
60 gr HNDY TAP .224 soft point moly bullet, 25 gr Bulk Surplus IMR4895 [acts like H322]
Seated with Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die 2.26" OAL
average run out = .00116"
Some problems with hard to trim

I concluded that I should stop using the Redding S die, and use the Lee Collet die that had been lying around my reloading room gathering dust for years. Not because of the small improvement in run out, but because it was easier to use and the case length growth problem, with high pressure loads, was much better.

 

[highflyer]

Hey highflyer, welcome to LRH

Don't know if Centre Punch is still around after 4 years and he may have changed his mind in that time. I know I hate it when I prove myself wrong but I have changed my mind about some things with time. Not the Lee Collets though.

I'm sure he meant no offense. Here at Long Range Hunting is where I come to get away from internet brawls and there is nowhere else you can get the depth of case prep knowledge. But it takes all kinds of information and opinions to hash out an issue.

I did not check the date on the post. Ancient history huh? I certainly meant no disrespect, i'm just a fan of the Lee Collet dies. You've got a good site here with great information.
Mike

 

[Longshot.bliss]

For what it's worth, I use a universal decapping die. Then run the case through the Lee die with the decapping rod removed. I use a Lyman M die to expand the neck as a separate step. This does 2 things. It allows me to control the neck tension and it does not pull on the neck when I remove the case. It's also easier to polish the expander plug. Yes I'v had to polish the collet die, but that only a 1 time thing. The big thing is that the M die put no vertical stress on the case like pulling the expander plug out of a sized case;


longshot.bliss

 

[boomtube]

"IMO, the Lee is clearly the better die even though it cost a fraction of the Redding die. "

Ditto. Given the excellant design of the Lee collet neck sizer and it's very low cost I gladly put up with the trivial need to smooth some aspects of the machining. The light "bullet tension" the die leaves is carefully calculated to produce better concentricity of the loaded rounds and that's what it's all about.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I asked this one on another forum. What are your opinions of the Lee Collet neck sizing dies?? What are your feeling about the Redding S bushing neck sizing dies and what brand of seater die do you prefer?

one is way over priced and the other is a paper weight
gary

 

[Broz]

The money you save may soon be spent on replacing the brass with cracked necks from the unsightly verticle ridges left from the lee collet dies. After 25+ years of hand loading, I use the Redding Competition Bushing 3 die sets now, and my ammo has never been better. The proof especially shows up at distances of 1000 yards and beyond.


Jeff gun)gun)

 

[Trickymissfit]

From an engineering standpoint, I think the Lee die is really very smart. Got a patent so I guess others felt the same way.

As to quality control, well, for the sort of money Lee is asking, you will get a few rough spots. However, most of the dies I have used over the years didn't need any touching up at all.

The biggest advantage of the Lee die is that the collet will size the very base of the neck. No doughnuts.

That cannot be said for the Redding die.

For simplicity in use and quality of finished sized neck, the Lee wins hands down. Add in the fact that it can be used with many other cartridges of same calibre and is dirt cheap, no comparison.

Only downside is that quite a bit of force is required to squeeze those necks so you need a sturdy press/bench.

Jerry

cut a few case necks apart and take a grand look at the doughnut. Die preference has little if anything to do with the dreaded doughnut being there. It can even form in a case neck as soon as you fire it one time (rare)
glt

 

[Trickymissfit]

The money you save may soon be spent on replacing the brass with cracked necks from the unsightly verticle ridges left from the lee collet dies. After 25+ years of hand loading, I use the Redding Competition Bushing 3 die sets now, and my ammo has never been better. The proof especially shows up at distances of 1000 yards and beyond.


Jeff gun)gun)

I was wondering when this subject was comming up! About 10 feet away is a near virgin Lee 22-250 set, and down stairs is the samething in .223. I had the lines on the neck as well, but I saw other issues. Nothing was round! This typical for a Hardingh Brothers collet setup (by the way the Lee Collet is really a Hardingh collet). Why? Because their intent is for usage with steel, and low tool pressure. Nature of the beast, and I've made a few hundred of them over the years. But in the case of the Lee body, the outter shell becomes the guide tube (or alignment tube). Where as the normal use of the collet is off an expanding arbor. When you build the collet you must grind the O.D. off an arbor to completely true it up after wireing out all the slots. The body has a pretty good finish, but have no idea to how round it is (this will bring in the next issue). The collet itself looks like it was run thru a nitride or a vacume furnace after finishing out. No big deal here as it won't shrink or grow enough for anybody here to care about. But did the qualify it after all the work? They did not on the two dies I have! Just the I.D. of the body. Collets are normally made from A2, and full hardened with no draw back (per the Hardingh Brothers patent by the way). That 62-64RC! Some folks (mainly Japanese) are trying to build collets out of D2 with a full heat treat, I might add. They shatter like glass. I suppose you could do them in O6 or even O1, but you'd loose strength and probably crack. I think if I had a lathe at the house, I could do some minor tuning and make the thing work for me, but think the lines are only going to get worse. The stem is a joke! And that would be gone instantly. First it dosn't follow the bore, but actually creates it's own bore due to rigidity. The nut would have to go as well.

The Lee design is not flawed, but I think they left out steps to save money on the retail price. Also the compression (or expansion) of the design is somewhat limited. Where with a bushing you simply swap the bushing or visit the local Sunnen hone (I suppose you could also hone the bore in the collet as well with the correct fixture). As most folks here already know, I've never been in love with Redding anything. I'd simply love to see a Lee anything make a Redding anything look bad. But like most everybody else out there, I depend on a Wilson die for neck sizing (or a custom reamed die of similar design). I do lube my neck dies, but with dry graphite. Takes about two seconds to dip the case mouth in the jar (been doing that for about fifteen years now). If you happen to own carbide bushings, you don't need to (I ain't buying into that, but that's what they claim)

My great bitch about the Lee die is the lack of adjustability, and that they needed another step in finishing them out. I've never saw a bench rest shooter using them, but seen more than a few using Redding and Forster dies (along with Jones and JLC's). I too will be running a test with .223 and 22-250 cases (I don't own the Redding bushing dies so keep that in mind.). If I get good results from the Lee dies, you'll all know about it, and bad as well. I'd like to try the cases from my 700 in .223, but it has a .246 neck (chamber), and the same in my Savage.
glt

 

[boomtube]

"I've never saw a bench rest shooter using them,.."

Ah, but they aren't BR dies and make no pretense of being such, do they? And, for that matter, BR shooters don't typically use RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, Forster, Redding or Dillion neck dies either so where does that leave us? Fact is, the Lee collet is properly used in normal factory rifles with SAAMI chambers and for that they may be equalled but they can't be beat.

Anyone getting "vertical creases" in case necks from using this die is (1) using far more pressure than the directions suggest and much more than is needed to properly size the necks and (2) even when they exist, the "creases" are very shallow bulges and external only, they have no noticible impact on the life of the cases.