Least fussy mono-metal bullet?

[Northkill]

Shot 2 deer on Saturday with the 7 Allen and the 150 BD-2's. Both were almost broadside. First doe was at 300 yd. Lung shot. Two petals came out the front of the deer through the brisket. (90 deg from shot angle) Part of it seemed to bust straight through - likely the shank. Lungs were gone, and front of stomach tore open. Deer was a total mess. Impact side shoulder was basically detached even though bullet hit well back from it. Impact velocity should have been around 3,200. Second big doe was at 400 yd, impact velocity around 3030. This one I tried for bone. Impact rear shoulder and low lung and heart. Heart was half gone. Lungs and liver lacerated, and again the near shoulder was dislocated and a total mess. No frags found. My internet slowed down too much to post pics right now as I'm over data for the month, but I'll try to remember to get you some later.

Not sure what was going on, but it's too much damage for me. Seems they open so fast on impact that the initial splash-back convulses the near side so bad it just kind of blew the shoulder attachments apart. Exit side was less damaged on both deer though the 300 yd doe had a lot of bloodshot on exit side. Both were running from hunting pressure though standing when shot, but high on adrenaline. Both really convulsed at impact and ran about 30 - 50 yd after impact, but a lot less enthusiastically than I've normally observed. Obviously hurt bad. The one at 400 yd was at dusk and I could easily see a cloud of steam shoot out the impact side and a little out the exit side. Not sure what to think. Either bad batch of copper, or the tipped design just can't handle those velocities. Have you seen a Hammer do that yet? I will need to try the same impact speed to evaluate, but from observing others results it seems maybe the non-tipped design or the hardness difference (if any) prevents this kind of violent disintegration. I don't know. Hard to get the best of all worlds in one product. Badlands warned me that he didn't think their bullet would hold together at my velocities. I'm sure under "normal" impact speeds, they would be phenomenal, and it's possible the tip would give an advantage on the bottom velocity end of the spectrum. Just hypothesizing. Wish I had the chance to take one at 800 yd or beyond to see what happens. 20+ mph winds didn't make that "ethical" for me. I'll try to post pics in a few days when internet speeds get restored.

 

[Rosebud]

Shot 2 deer on Saturday with the 7 Allen and the 150 BD-2's. Both were almost broadside. First doe was at 300 yd. Lung shot. Two petals came out the front of the deer through the brisket. (90 deg from shot angle) Part of it seemed to bust straight through - likely the shank. Lungs were gone, and front of stomach tore open. Deer was a total mess. Impact side shoulder was basically detached even though bullet hit well back from it. Impact velocity should have been around 3,200. Second big doe was at 400 yd, impact velocity around 3030. This one I tried for bone. Impact rear shoulder and low lung and heart. Heart was half gone. Lungs and liver lacerated, and again the near shoulder was dislocated and a total mess. No frags found. My internet slowed down too much to post pics right now as I'm over data for the month, but I'll try to remember to get you some later.

Not sure what was going on, but it's too much damage for me. Seems they open so fast on impact that the initial splash-back convulses the near side so bad it just kind of blew the shoulder attachments apart. Exit side was less damaged on both deer though the 300 yd doe had a lot of bloodshot on exit side. Both were running from hunting pressure though standing when shot, but high on adrenaline. Both really convulsed at impact and ran about 30 - 50 yd after impact, but a lot less enthusiastically than I've normally observed. Obviously hurt bad. The one at 400 yd was at dusk and I could easily see a cloud of steam shoot out the impact side and a little out the exit side. Not sure what to think. Either bad batch of copper, or the tipped design just can't handle those velocities. Have you seen a Hammer do that yet? I will need to try the same impact speed to evaluate, but from observing others results it seems maybe the non-tipped design or the hardness difference (if any) prevents this kind of violent disintegration. I don't know. Hard to get the best of all worlds in one product. Badlands warned me that he didn't think their bullet would hold together at my velocities. I'm sure under "normal" impact speeds, they would be phenomenal, and it's possible the tip would give an advantage on the bottom velocity end of the spectrum. Just hypothesizing. Wish I had the chance to take one at 800 yd or beyond to see what happens. 20+ mph winds didn't make that "ethical" for me. I'll try to post pics in a few days when internet speeds get restored.

What's your muzzle velocity that its still at those speeds at three and four hundred years.

 

[Northkill]

MV 3,665 fps. as per LabRadar with 106 gr RL-33. Had it up to 3766 or so with 108 gr, but that was too hot for summer. 107 gr at 3,711 could have worked, but we dropped back to 106 where it seemed more consistent in grouping and less prone to over-pressure in warmer temps.

The way drops held out, we had to increase the BC a little out to about 400 yds... Took some time, but here's some pics. Sorry the deer were not washed prior to photos.

My theory is that at these velocities the impact "splash" and tissue displacement (cavitation) is incredibly dramatic. Lots of tissue gets stretched, torn and forced around violently. Chest impacts with these super-velocity rounds cause a hyper-inflation of the chest cavity which results in the shoulder separation, ribs splitting, gut splitting without being hit, diaphragm tearing, and also why we see steam or gas being blown back out of the entry and exit holes like I did. At this level, I doubt there is much to be done to stop this other than going up in bullet weight with lower velocity - like a 170 Cayuga or 177 Hammer maybe since Badlands does not offer a heavier option for an 8 twist.

Deer #1 @ 300 yds - entrance well behind shoulder - impact on deer's left side - 3,200 fps - 2 holes came out the front, one on each side of the brisket - both shoulders separated but impact side was all but falling off. Literally no lungs left. Heart in tact. Front of stomach torn & some contents pushed back out the entry. Liver and other internals lacerated/torn. Severe bloodshot on exit side rib cage - likely from cavitation pressure.

Deer #2 @ 400 yds - entrance caught rear of left shoulder (deer's left side) - 3,030 fps - huge impact hole - impact side shoulder was separated bad - exit shoulder had slight separation - less bloodshot on exit as compared to doe #1 - heart was completely sheared in half (half gone) - lungs were lacerated - liver has a small slit/split - general internal mess similar to doe #1 - saw steam or gas blow out about 5' or more on impact side and a little on exit side.

No frags found on either animal. (Last photo shows 6.5 Creed vs 7-LRM vs 7 Allen Mag for reference.)

I'll need to do more testing, but my initial experience has been showing 0.64 MOA at 100 & 200 yds, but when I stretched it out to 1,002 yds, last Thurs, the only 2 groups I shot were 2.5" or less - and that was in 5-6 mph wind. Hard to explain. Possibly something to Kirby Allen's words? "These hyper performance rifles with long bullets and very high velocity just need more range for the projectiles to 'go to sleep', if you will. This is when the bullets fight off the effects of the rifling and spin true around their center of balance. Until this happens there is some amount of yaw in the bullet. Most feel if a rifle will not shoot 1/2 moa at close range it will never do that at long range. There may be some truth to that using smaller chamberings with more conventional bullet designs, but that is certainly not the case with these hyper performance rounds."

 

[IHFarmer07]

MV 3,665 fps. as per LabRadar with 106 gr RL-33. Had it up to 3766 or so with 108 gr, but that was too hot for summer. 107 gr at 3,711 could have worked, but we dropped back to 106 where it seemed more consistent in grouping and less prone to over-pressure in warmer temps.

The way drops held out, we had to increase the BC a little out to about 400 yds... Took some time, but here's some pics. Sorry the deer were not washed prior to photos.

My theory is that at these velocities the impact "splash" and tissue displacement (cavitation) is incredibly dramatic. Lots of tissue gets stretched, torn and forced around violently. Chest impacts with these super-velocity rounds cause a hyper-inflation of the chest cavity which results in the shoulder separation, ribs splitting, gut splitting without being hit, diaphragm tearing, and also why we see steam or gas being blown back out of the entry and exit holes like I did. At this level, I doubt there is much to be done to stop this other than going up in bullet weight with lower velocity - like a 170 Cayuga or 177 Hammer maybe since Badlands does not offer a heavier option for an 8 twist.

Deer #1 @ 300 yds - entrance well behind shoulder - impact on deer's left side - 3,200 fps - 2 holes came out the front, one on each side of the brisket - both shoulders separated but impact side was all but falling off. Literally no lungs left. Heart in tact. Front of stomach torn & some contents pushed back out the entry. Liver and other internals lacerated/torn. Severe bloodshot on exit side rib cage - likely from cavitation pressure.

Deer #2 @ 400 yds - entrance caught rear of left shoulder (deer's left side) - 3,030 fps - huge impact hole - impact side shoulder was separated bad - exit shoulder had slight separation - less bloodshot on exit as compared to doe #1 - heart was completely sheared in half (half gone) - lungs were lacerated - liver has a small slit/split - general internal mess similar to doe #1 - saw steam or gas blow out about 5' or more on impact side and a little on exit side.

No frags found on either animal. (Last photo shows 6.5 Creed vs 7-LRM vs 7 Allen Mag for reference.)

I'll need to do more testing, but my initial experience has been showing 0.64 MOA at 100 & 200 yds, but when I stretched it out to 1,002 yds, last Thurs, the only 2 groups I shot were 2.5" or less - and that was in 5-6 mph wind. Hard to explain. Possibly something to Kirby Allen's words? "These hyper performance rifles with long bullets and very high velocity just need more range for the projectiles to 'go to sleep', if you will. This is when the bullets fight off the effects of the rifling and spin true around their center of balance. Until this happens there is some amount of yaw in the bullet. Most feel if a rifle will not shoot 1/2 moa at close range it will never do that at long range. There may be some truth to that using smaller chamberings with more conventional bullet designs, but that is certainly not the case with these hyper performance rounds."

Wow!! Lol, not too sure about this but I think your gun is a lil small for shooting deer sized animals!!!

JK man!! That's some impressive damage!!
I wonder what that setup would do with a coyote! I bet it would be turned inside out.

Have you ever shot a white tail deer with this rifle before and had this much damage with any other bullet? Only reason I ask is you maybe hard pressed to find a bullet that won't do this much damage.

 

[Northkill]

Wow!! Lol, not too sure about this but I think your gun is a lil small for shooting deer sized animals!!!

JK man!! That's some impressive damage!!
I wonder what that setup would do with a coyote! I bet it would be turned inside out.

Have you ever shot a white tail deer with this rifle before and had this much damage with any other bullet? Only reason I ask is you maybe hard pressed to find a bullet that won't do this much damage.

Exactly. It's definitely on the small side for deer sized game. Pretty sure it'd give a coyote a permanent bellyache. At least bring his insides out where he could lick 'em off good.

Rifle was only completed this year, so this is the first big-game test. Only used it on experimental basis to see what the Badlands would do under hyper-velocity. This was built for elk, but I won't be going for elk this year. Haven't tried other projectiles in it yet - ran out of time before season started to do development on anything else. Kirby had done some testing with the 180 Hybrids and the 169 Hammers with good results, so I do have those for backups, but neither would be my preference in their class at this point. Rather the 195 EOL or the 177 Hammer, and potentially the 170 Cayuga. Planning on trying something else till next year.

I think going heavier/slower is going to be the ticket in this case. Lot of fun to shoot though. A bonafide ego trip.

EDIT:
I was wrong. Looked back in my records and Kirby had actually tested the 195 EOL, not the 180 HT. Maybe I should play with that load a bit as that gives some serious long-range numbers. Here's his data for what he did in my rifle: (maybe this will help you tell me what a 177 HH will do?)
195 gr. Berger EOL
100.0 gr. RL33
Fed-215 primer
3.680" oal
3300 fps average

 

[Mike D Texas]

MV 3,665 fps. as per LabRadar with 106 gr RL-33. Had it up to 3766 or so with 108 gr, but that was too hot for summer. 107 gr at 3,711 could have worked, but we dropped back to 106 where it seemed more consistent in grouping and less prone to over-pressure in warmer temps.

The way drops held out, we had to increase the BC a little out to about 400 yds... Took some time, but here's some pics. Sorry the deer were not washed prior to photos.

My theory is that at these velocities the impact "splash" and tissue displacement (cavitation) is incredibly dramatic. Lots of tissue gets stretched, torn and forced around violently. Chest impacts with these super-velocity rounds cause a hyper-inflation of the chest cavity which results in the shoulder separation, ribs splitting, gut splitting without being hit, diaphragm tearing, and also why we see steam or gas being blown back out of the entry and exit holes like I did. At this level, I doubt there is much to be done to stop this other than going up in bullet weight with lower velocity - like a 170 Cayuga or 177 Hammer maybe since Badlands does not offer a heavier option for an 8 twist.

Deer #1 @ 300 yds - entrance well behind shoulder - impact on deer's left side - 3,200 fps - 2 holes came out the front, one on each side of the brisket - both shoulders separated but impact side was all but falling off. Literally no lungs left. Heart in tact. Front of stomach torn & some contents pushed back out the entry. Liver and other internals lacerated/torn. Severe bloodshot on exit side rib cage - likely from cavitation pressure.

Deer #2 @ 400 yds - entrance caught rear of left shoulder (deer's left side) - 3,030 fps - huge impact hole - impact side shoulder was separated bad - exit shoulder had slight separation - less bloodshot on exit as compared to doe #1 - heart was completely sheared in half (half gone) - lungs were lacerated - liver has a small slit/split - general internal mess similar to doe #1 - saw steam or gas blow out about 5' or more on impact side and a little on exit side.

No frags found on either animal. (Last photo shows 6.5 Creed vs 7-LRM vs 7 Allen Mag for reference.)

I'll need to do more testing, but my initial experience has been showing 0.64 MOA at 100 & 200 yds, but when I stretched it out to 1,002 yds, last Thurs, the only 2 groups I shot were 2.5" or less - and that was in 5-6 mph wind. Hard to explain. Possibly something to Kirby Allen's words? "These hyper performance rifles with long bullets and very high velocity just need more range for the projectiles to 'go to sleep', if you will. This is when the bullets fight off the effects of the rifling and spin true around their center of balance. Until this happens there is some amount of yaw in the bullet. Most feel if a rifle will not shoot 1/2 moa at close range it will never do that at long range. There may be some truth to that using smaller chamberings with more conventional bullet designs, but that is certainly not the case with these hyper performance rounds."

Good grief. What is the parent case of that 7AM?

 

[Northkill]

Good grief. What is the parent case of that 7AM?

Spun off the 338 Lapua Improved with less body taper. Way over-bore, but doesn't seem to do too bad with the RL-33. Hits like lightening. Goal is for extreme range potential and reducing TOF enough to minimize wind and target movement factors as much as possible. It'll likely run the 195 EOL around 3,300, so that would be a good option too if I decide to play outside of copper. Barrel-burner no doubt, but it only gets shot here and there and mostly for hunting. I never shoot more than two or three times in succession before cooling. Has the harder Bartlein 400 MOD barrel, so hopefully that improves life. Very impressed so far. Recoil is almost non-existent with the Terminator and the high muzzle pressures. Shooting without ear protection is NOT an option.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Spun off the 338 Lapua Improved with less body taper.

Ah, well that explains it.

 

[akmtnhnt]

MV 3,665 fps. as per LabRadar with 106 gr RL-33. Had it up to 3766 or so with 108 gr, but that was too hot for summer. 107 gr at 3,711 could have worked, but we dropped back to 106 where it seemed more consistent in grouping and less prone to over-pressure in warmer temps.

The way drops held out, we had to increase the BC a little out to about 400 yds... Took some time, but here's some pics. Sorry the deer were not washed prior to photos.

My theory is that at these velocities the impact "splash" and tissue displacement (cavitation) is incredibly dramatic. Lots of tissue gets stretched, torn and forced around violently. Chest impacts with these super-velocity rounds cause a hyper-inflation of the chest cavity which results in the shoulder separation, ribs splitting, gut splitting without being hit, diaphragm tearing, and also why we see steam or gas being blown back out of the entry and exit holes like I did. At this level, I doubt there is much to be done to stop this other than going up in bullet weight with lower velocity - like a 170 Cayuga or 177 Hammer maybe since Badlands does not offer a heavier option for an 8 twist.

Deer #1 @ 300 yds - entrance well behind shoulder - impact on deer's left side - 3,200 fps - 2 holes came out the front, one on each side of the brisket - both shoulders separated but impact side was all but falling off. Literally no lungs left. Heart in tact. Front of stomach torn & some contents pushed back out the entry. Liver and other internals lacerated/torn. Severe bloodshot on exit side rib cage - likely from cavitation pressure.

Deer #2 @ 400 yds - entrance caught rear of left shoulder (deer's left side) - 3,030 fps - huge impact hole - impact side shoulder was separated bad - exit shoulder had slight separation - less bloodshot on exit as compared to doe #1 - heart was completely sheared in half (half gone) - lungs were lacerated - liver has a small slit/split - general internal mess similar to doe #1 - saw steam or gas blow out about 5' or more on impact side and a little on exit side.

No frags found on either animal. (Last photo shows 6.5 Creed vs 7-LRM vs 7 Allen Mag for reference.)

I'll need to do more testing, but my initial experience has been showing 0.64 MOA at 100 & 200 yds, but when I stretched it out to 1,002 yds, last Thurs, the only 2 groups I shot were 2.5" or less - and that was in 5-6 mph wind. Hard to explain. Possibly something to Kirby Allen's words? "These hyper performance rifles with long bullets and very high velocity just need more range for the projectiles to 'go to sleep', if you will. This is when the bullets fight off the effects of the rifling and spin true around their center of balance. Until this happens there is some amount of yaw in the bullet. Most feel if a rifle will not shoot 1/2 moa at close range it will never do that at long range. There may be some truth to that using smaller chamberings with more conventional bullet designs, but that is certainly not the case with these hyper performance rounds."

The hammer has a lot lower BC, so by 400 yards it'd be going a lot slower anyways. Also, the 177, like you mentioned will bring the MV down a bit.

 

[Northkill]

The hammer has a lot lower BC, so by 400 yards it'd be going a lot slower anyways. Also, the 177, like you mentioned will bring the MV down a bit.

The 177 HH is listed with a G7 @ .313, which actually is a bit over the 150 BD-2 listed BC of .309. Not sure what the velocity differential would be since the Hammers pressure up different. Add in the factor of case design and capacity since that can influence some of those norms as well. What would you Hammer guys give as an educated guess for velocity out of the 177 HH based on 3,665 for the BD-2? Would you still run RL-33 or switch to Retumbo? I would prefer the Retumbo, but it didn't do as well with the Bergers or the Badlands as the RL-33.

 

[tacosupreme]

MV 3,665 fps. as per LabRadar with 106 gr RL-33. Had it up to 3766 or so with 108 gr, but that was too hot for summer. 107 gr at 3,711 could have worked, but we dropped back to 106 where it seemed more consistent in grouping and less prone to over-pressure in warmer temps.

The way drops held out, we had to increase the BC a little out to about 400 yds... Took some time, but here's some pics. Sorry the deer were not washed prior to photos.

My theory is that at these velocities the impact "splash" and tissue displacement (cavitation) is incredibly dramatic. Lots of tissue gets stretched, torn and forced around violently. Chest impacts with these super-velocity rounds cause a hyper-inflation of the chest cavity which results in the shoulder separation, ribs splitting, gut splitting without being hit, diaphragm tearing, and also why we see steam or gas being blown back out of the entry and exit holes like I did. At this level, I doubt there is much to be done to stop this other than going up in bullet weight with lower velocity - like a 170 Cayuga or 177 Hammer maybe since Badlands does not offer a heavier option for an 8 twist.

Deer #1 @ 300 yds - entrance well behind shoulder - impact on deer's left side - 3,200 fps - 2 holes came out the front, one on each side of the brisket - both shoulders separated but impact side was all but falling off. Literally no lungs left. Heart in tact. Front of stomach torn & some contents pushed back out the entry. Liver and other internals lacerated/torn. Severe bloodshot on exit side rib cage - likely from cavitation pressure.

Deer #2 @ 400 yds - entrance caught rear of left shoulder (deer's left side) - 3,030 fps - huge impact hole - impact side shoulder was separated bad - exit shoulder had slight separation - less bloodshot on exit as compared to doe #1 - heart was completely sheared in half (half gone) - lungs were lacerated - liver has a small slit/split - general internal mess similar to doe #1 - saw steam or gas blow out about 5' or more on impact side and a little on exit side.

No frags found on either animal. (Last photo shows 6.5 Creed vs 7-LRM vs 7 Allen Mag for reference.)

I'll need to do more testing, but my initial experience has been showing 0.64 MOA at 100 & 200 yds, but when I stretched it out to 1,002 yds, last Thurs, the only 2 groups I shot were 2.5" or less - and that was in 5-6 mph wind. Hard to explain. Possibly something to Kirby Allen's words? "These hyper performance rifles with long bullets and very high velocity just need more range for the projectiles to 'go to sleep', if you will. This is when the bullets fight off the effects of the rifling and spin true around their center of balance. Until this happens there is some amount of yaw in the bullet. Most feel if a rifle will not shoot 1/2 moa at close range it will never do that at long range. There may be some truth to that using smaller chamberings with more conventional bullet designs, but that is certainly not the case with these hyper performance rounds."

I noticed a similar thing with my 338 and the 275 grain SBD2. It shoots a one inch group at 100, and also a 1 inch group at 300... weird.

 

[ButterBean]

The 177 HH is listed with a G7 @ .313, which actually is a bit over the 150 BD-2 listed BC of .309. Not sure what the velocity differential would be since the Hammers pressure up different. Add in the factor of case design and capacity since that can influence some of those norms as well. What would you Hammer guys give as an educated guess for velocity out of the 177 HH based on 3,665 for the BD-2? Would you still run RL-33 or switch to Retumbo? I would prefer the Retumbo, but it didn't do as well with the Bergers or the Badlands as the RL-33.

I'd go to H4350 with the Hammers

 

[Northkill]

I'd go to H4350 with the Hammers

Interesting idea. I know it's dangerous to stick a neck out, but any guesstimate on velocity potential if Kirby got 3,300 MV on the 195 EOL w/RL-33?

 

[ButterBean]

Interesting idea. I know it's dangerous to stick a neck out, but any guesstimate on velocity potential if Kirby got 3,300 MV on the 195 EOL w/RL-33?

It'll be better than that Brother,