Larger diameter bullets allow more room for error?

[FIGJAM]

Bullet construction, even individual bullets within a line a bullets plays a huge factor in what you're asking.
But usually the more foreign material you launch into an animal the better, a larger bore bullet has the ability to flake pieces of copper off, causing a large wound while retaining a solid chunk that maintains its momentum. Energy and sd do a poor job a translating a bullets effectiveness vs other bullets. Take a 168eldm, it's impressively violent on deer sized game from a 308. a 178 eldx from a 308, only 10 grains more but it tends to punch through, being effective but underwhelming in its performance vs the lighter bullet because of bullet construction, despite having more energy and higher sectional density

I get bullet choice and shot placement - I am wondering if bullet diameter is more important than energy and I will add momentum now that i understand it. Although momentum has opened up a whole new can of worms for me - I am wondering if momentum is a better measure than energy...

 

[Elkeater]

I get bullet choice and shot placement - I am wondering if bullet diameter is more important than energy and I will add momentum now that i understand it. Although momentum has opened up a whole new can of worms for me - I am wondering if momentum is a better measure than energy...

I will add to this by saying that at .50 caliber 245gr powerbelt while not moving fast and certainly not aerodynamic or high sectional density will shove its way through a critter pretty well.

 

[.300H&H]

Shoot an elk with a heavy for caliber 6.5pill, then one with a heavy for caliber .308/.338 pill both with identical frangible construction at 2200fps impact. You'll then see the truth.

 

[Canhunter35]

I get bullet choice and shot placement - I am wondering if bullet diameter is more important than energy and I will add momentum now that i understand it. Although momentum has opened up a whole new can of worms for me - I am wondering if momentum is a better measure than energy...

I would say yes it is more important than energy at target but it's overly simplistic without adding the minimum requirements of velocity and energy for the larger bore bullet to perform...and a smaller bullet can compensate with speed, as I said before a 25-06 can work as well as a 30-06, but if I messed the shot up say into the hip or gut, I'd rather have the 30-06 than the 25-06.

Years ago I watched a moose get shot with a 375h&h in the shoulder and it knocked him out of his hooves, last year I shot a moose with a 300wby and a 212eldx in the shoulder, he went 10 feet and collapsed. If he had been at the edge of the swamp and walked ten feet into the swamp I would've wished I had a 375. I don't know what the energy would've been but there was a difference when they hit

 

[FIGJAM]

Shoot an elk with a heavy for caliber 6.5pill, then one with a heavy for caliber .308/.338 pill both with identical frangible construction at 2200fps impact. You'll then see the truth.

Yeah, but the energy in your example will obviously favor the larger diameter bullet because you have them traveling at the same velocity on impact. I am asking if diameter is more important than energy? If that heavy for caliber 264 arrives at 2600 fps and your 308 arrives at 2200 fps and both have 2200 ft lbs of energy, what is the truth? I think that because the energy is the same they will perform equally well.

Also, what if the 264 caliber bullet arrives with more energy than the 308 bullet, say 2400ft lbs vs 2000ft lbs. Based on my thoughts regarding energy vs bullet diameter, I would argue the 264 bullet would perform better.

 

[Hand Skills]

It's hard to make a binary argument for either. I feel it could be viewed as continuum though;

On animals under 500lb, there's not a lot of resistance there - more energy can help bullets come unglued and do increased damage

As targets get over 500lb, target resistance increases to a point where momentum is needed to ensure adequate penetration. Kinetic energy can only get it done when it reaches the vitals.

Somewhere along the way (.35-.40ish?) expansion becomes less and less important.

 

[.300H&H]

Yeah, but the energy in your example will obviously favor the larger diameter bullet because you have them traveling at the same velocity on impact. I am asking if diameter is more important than energy? If that heavy for caliber 264 arrives at 2600 fps and your 308 arrives at 2200 fps and both have 2200 ft lbs of energy, what is the truth? I think that because the energy is the same they will perform equally well.

Also, what if the 264 caliber bullet arrives with more energy than the 308 bullet, say 2400ft lbs vs 2000ft lbs. Based on my thoughts regarding energy vs bullet diameter, I would argue the 264 bullet would perform better.

Ah I gotcha, 2200 fps and 2200 ft-lbf are decent numbers for a .308, I'd take that all day if I can put it in the right spot. 2000ft-lbf is still really good for a .308, but may likely be more on par with the 2400ft-lbf 264 numbers which is about what I achieve at 300yds with a 140bhvld.
I had the similar thoughts years ago when I bought into the 264 cal, although it's served me well it has its limits and is no replacement for the .338 lapua I also had.

 

[FIGJAM]

Ah I gotcha, 2200 fps and 2200 ft-lbf are decent numbers for a .308, I'd take that all day if I can put it in the right spot. 2000ft-lbf is still really good for a .308, but may likely be more on par with the 2400ft-lbf 264 numbers which is about what I achieve at 300yds with a 140bhvld.
I had the similar thoughts years ago when I bought into the 264 cal, although it's served me well it has its limits and is no replacement for the .338 lapua I also had.

This is also why I wanted to avoid specific cartridges in this - it seems when a specific cartridge is involved there is added emotion to the discussion. I am equally guilty in that regard, I have some favorites for different reasons. But I think if you take some of the caliber bias out of it and look at something like energy, people can see that it is possible for some smaller diameter bullets to equal the energy of the larger ones.

And I think their is replacement for displacement - velocity can compensate for smaller diameter bullets.

 

[.300H&H]

Whatever helps ya sleep at night I guess

 

[BigGrizz]

This is also why I wanted to avoid specific cartridges in this - it seems when a specific cartridge is involved there is added emotion to the discussion. I am equally guilty in that regard, I have some favorites for different reasons. But I think if you take some of the caliber bias out of it and look at something like energy, people can see that it is possible for some smaller diameter bullets to equal the energy of the larger ones.

And I think their is replacement for displacement - velocity can compensate for smaller diameter bullets.

The bullet has to hold up and perform, otherwise it will pinhole. Energy transfer would also be garbage. Small projectiles are good for small critters. Attempting to take larger game with smaller projectiles is unethical, and we are already on a board titled with an ethically questioned practice.

Like I said earlier, there are a lot on this site and around the web that are jumping the shark with wanting smaller projectiles to do what larger projectiles will. It's simple physics, and we haven't figured out how to progress beyond the limits of the materials we have at our disposal and the current understood laws of physics.

 

[Mach 1]

What "reasoning"? It was merely a story that happened to mirror the statement/opinion of another member. If you're refering to the cartridge I used in that story as larger caliber it's "place" was right there. I didnt execute the shot as cleanly as I wanted and the larger diameter bullet did not make up for that error.

I understand what your saying. I'm not saying bigger bullets are magic, but the animal may have ran off from the poor shot with a 223 or something else small. That's my point

 

[FIGJAM]

The bullet has to hold up and perform, otherwise it will pinhole. Energy transfer would also be garbage. Small projectiles are good for small critters. Attempting to take larger game with smaller projectiles is unethical, and we are already on a board titled with an ethically questioned practice.

Like I said earlier, there are a lot on this site and around the web that are jumping the shark with wanting smaller projectiles to do what larger projectiles will. It's simple physics, and we haven't figured out how to progress beyond the limits of the materials we have at our disposal and the current understood laws of physics

Come on man - lets not default to shot placement and bullet selection argument. Thats a given...


Lots of people say that - but why? Why is a 140gr 264 bullet arriving at 1500 ft lbs of energy less ethical than a 200gr .308 bullet arriving with 1500 ft lbs?

 

[Deputy819]

I understand what your saying. I'm not saying bigger bullets are magic, but the animal may have ran off from the poor shot with a 223 or something else small. That's my point

Ahhhhh, okay. I gotcha now.

 

[FIGJAM]

Whatever helps ya sleep at night I guess

Is this the I am going to take my ball and go home post?

The best argument I have heard is that momentum is more more important than energy to kill an animal. Doesn't neccesarily mean diameter is more important, but larger diameter bullets can be had in heavier weights.