Larger diameter bullets allow more room for error?

[Canhunter35]

T

this is a really good resource. Under bullet diameter he states:

Bullet diameter
The fourth factor is bullet diameter and put simply, the wider the caliber, the less need there is for high velocity to initiate shock.

As I read through that website I am thinking that higher velocities can compensate for smaller diameter bullets....

That's why in most cases a 25-06 works as well as a 30-06

 

[26Reload]

NERDS.....yes all Nerds...........ha
Last year cow elk....7rum...168lrab...2950fps.....600 yards....
Pass through.....
The bullet passed thru...but left a mess...onside shot completely bloodshot...throughout the meat not just between layers...obviously the bullet did it's job...but was it excessive...mild load in my mind...should it have had the 3' bloodshot area from end of ribs up into the neck tissue....
Kinetic energy...obviously there...penetration obviously thru....would have a 30 cal done any better or worse....

 

[Elkeater]

Yup all of us are NERDS!!! I think We can all agree that there are a bunch of calibers and cartridges and bullet designs that will get the job done. When it comes right down to it the choice will be personal preference and good shot placement will be king and when something goes wrong we just have to hope our choice in gun will be enough to cover our mistakes.

 

[FURMAN]

This is a great discussion. The one thing I have not seen mentioned is momentum which can play a role in this entire discussion. Just because a lighter faster bullet has the same energy as a heavier slower bullet does not mean it will have more momentum. I personally have never seen momentum be an issue as almost all of my kills are pass throughs. That is mostly a product of me always choosing heavy for caliber bullets. What I have seen time and time again is larger, more destructive would channels from larger bullets. As to the will a 150 grain 6.5 kill less effectively than a 150 from a 308 I will never know because in that exact case I would take the 6.5 every single time solely due to the high likely hood it has a much higher BC and that alone will increase the likely hood of making the bullet go where it is desired. Some of the real intent of the question will never really be answered with field data because no one intentionally wounds game which is really what would be required for the necessary data. I will add one last thing. The stag in my profile pic was hit with a 215 and a bad wind call on my part. I have seen enough kills with various weights of bullets to have very serious doubts that I would've ever put my hands on him had he been shot with a 140 grain bullet. The 215 anchored him allowing a follow up shot. It sucks but it happens and I want the best I can handle just in case.

 

[FIGJAM]

This is a great discussion. The one thing I have not seen mentioned is momentum which can play a role in this entire discussion. Just because a lighter faster bullet has the same energy as a heavier slower bullet does not mean it will have more momentum. I personally have never seen momentum be an issue as almost all of my kills are pass throughs. That is mostly a product of me always choosing heavy for caliper bullets. What I have seen time and time again is larger, more destructive would channels from larger bullets. As to the will a 150 grain 6.5 kill less effectively than a 150 from a 308 I will never know because in that exact case I would take the 6.5 every single time solely due to the high likely hood it has a much higher BC and that alone will increase the likely hood of making the bullet go where it is desired. Some of the real intent of the question will never really be answered with field data because no one intentionally wounds game which is really what would be required for the necessary data. I will add one last thing. The stag in my profile pic was hit with a 215 and a bad wind call on my part. I have seen enough kills with various weights of bullets to have very serious doubts that I would've ever put my hands on him had he been shot with a 140 grain bullet. The 215 anchored him allowing a follow up shot. It sucks but it happens and I want the best I can handle just in case.

I have a question about momentum - doesn't bullet construction play a large part in momentum and pass through?

 

[Varminator 911]

The differences between 264, 284, and 308 are incremental. But is there really someone who can say that they think a 264 is equal to the 338 for long range on elk?

Or if you had to stop a charging grizzly at 5 paces would you like a 264, 338, or 458 hole in the end of your WM case?

 

[FURMAN]

I have a question about momentum - doesn't bullet construction play a large part in momentum and pass through?

Momentum, no. Penetration yes. A frangible bullet may, I repeat may, not penetrate as much as a solid given the same momentum. I can not recall a single non pass through with the 215 Berger but they do leave numerous fragments that cause damage outside of the rather large wound channel.

 

[Tex_Hunter]

I'm not advocating for crappy shooting, but there is absolutely no doubt that a big heavy well constructed bullet moving at high velocity increase your odds of recovering your animal if you make a less than perfect shot.

The above sentiment is true only if the rifle shooting the "big heavy well constructed bullet moving at high velocity" isnt a direct contributor to all the less than perfect shoots.

We all know people who flinch just thinking about touching the trigger on their hunting piece, a lot of those people are responding to this thread, most if not all of them would never admit it though... this leads to less practice and chronic poor shoot placement.

I hunt with a group of about 15 guys every year, in that group we have one guy who can shoot an un-braked 300Win Mag with the steady hands of a brain surgeon... and another shooting a 7 mag has difficulty bringing in deer even at 100yds and convulses like someone having a seisure if you do the test where you put a dummy round in his magazine while shooting.

 

[FURMAN]

The above sentiment is true only if the rifle shooting the "big heavy well constructed bullet moving at high velocity" isnt a direct contributor to all the less than perfect shoots.

We all know people who flinch just thinking about touching the trigger on their hunting piece, a lot of those people are responding to this thread, most if not all of them would never admit it though... this leads to less practice and chronic poor shoot placement.

I hunt with a group of about 15 guys every year, in that group we have one guy who can shoot an un-braked 300Win Mag with the steady hands of a brain surgeon... and another shooting a 7 mag has difficulty bringing in deer even at 100yds and convulses like someone having a seisure if you do the test where you put a dummy round in his magazine while shooting.

I believe(maybe naively) this should always be assumed. I may anger people when I say this but it is my opinion if the largest cartridge you can comfortably shoot is inadequate for the job then you should not be taking the shot at game. The OP was trying to keep this part of the discussion out of this thread. I suggest we honor his wish. If I misunderstood him then let me know.

 

[26Reload]

I wouldn't want anyone screwing around with my weapon just to see if I am going to pull my head or jerk the first shot.....****ed me off in the past...dont touch my stuff.....
300wm of hunting weight(9#) are not a hard kicking rifle....until you start stuffing a monster sized bullet in them...and that goes for most any cartridge....
If the guy shooting 7rm cant quit flinching....quit hunting with rifle...go to archery.....

 

[.300H&H]

T

this is a really good resource. Under bullet diameter he states:

Bullet diameter
The fourth factor is bullet diameter and put simply, the wider the caliber, the less need there is for high velocity to initiate shock.

As I read through that website I am thinking that higher velocities can compensate for smaller diameter bullets....

I would agree that smaller diameter heavy for caliber frangible bullets bullets for long range, along with lighter homogenous for short range, can compensate for the lack in diameter when pushed at higher speeds. It also can go to the other end of the spectrum, just think the Buffalo being hunted to near extinction.

 

[Tex_Hunter]

a lot of those people are responding to this thread, most if not all of them would never admit it though... this leads to less practice and chronic poor shoot placement.

Lol... When I wrote that comment I didnt expect to find someone who fit that description in the first two replies to me, but yet here we are.

Proves the old saying that if you throw a rock into a dark alley, most likely the dog that barks is the one you hit.

Its exactly this whole he-man bravado of "dont touch my stuff I know what I'm doing" and "if he cant shoot xx without flinching he should stick to bow hunting" that leads to people shooting a gun they cant handle and blaming the equipment every time they gut shoot an animal or miss entirely which then becomes the basis of all the caliber based p*ssing matches on this forum.

Carry on

 

[CA48]

There are a lot variables to this. Although I feel the simple answer is Yes bigger bullets kill better. When bullets are put into the vitals there may not be but few seconds difference of the animal expiring. But where the bigger calibers shine is when a less than perfect shot is made. In long range hunting it happens sometimes and that is where you will see a big difference. What really opened my eyes to this was guiding hunters from Alaska to South Texas and inbetween. I wish I could say everyone I guided was a perfect shot but most aren't. I've also done quite a bit of hunting myself and have been on ranches with permits where we have harvested over 200 white tailed deer a year. I have shot them with .223's up to a .338 300gr Berger going 3250fps. In my opinion this not much of a debate, bigger bullets kill better in general. A few examples of this. There are large number of big hogs on my place. A few years ago a friend and myself were hunting and a group of hogs went to cross the river, they stopped for just a sec and my buddy shot one and dropped it with my 338 edge improved at 250yds. The others took off running horizontal to us, he loaded another one (single shot) and shot at a 200lb sow running. Hit her right in the waistline. And from our shooting position I saw the 300 gr Berger cut her in half almost vertically, she dropped squealed out a few seconds and expired. Hogs are built tuff and I've seen them take shots to guts with 300 win mags and never slow down. If I the shot had been made with anything smaller she would have kept on running never to be found.
Another example using the same rifle, I was deer hunting one evening, it was very windy and about to get dark. A doe came out of the brushline at a little over 600 yds. Though the wind was still blowing pretty good I was still confident in the shot. Pulled the trigger, heard the thud, she went about 15 yards and was down. As I got up to her I saw I had over compensated my wind call and put the shot in her guts. But the 300 gr Berger had enough terminal shock it blew the stomach out on the exit side and upon gutting her (what was left anyway) I noticed the shock of the bullet impact had ripped her vital organs loose even though she was not shot there. If I had made this shot placement with my 6.5 she would have ran half a mile before bedding down making her untrackable without a dogs assistance.

A picture of the doe as I found her.

Last year I also did a lot of hunting with my 6.5 SS shooting 140s at 3250fps and shot deer and hogs at a variety of ranges. All these shots were vital shots and expired just like they would if a .338 bullet was put there. But from what I've noticed a bigger bullet will always get you out of a bind better when things don't go as planned. For bigger game I always prefer bigger calibers, especially when it comes to Long Range Hunting.

 

[Deleted member 107796]

I thought about this a bit and came to another thought... I can see situations where retained downrange energy can have an advantage, perhaps in certain bullet placements other than ideal or on larger game. We know that velocity can make up for kinetic energy but a 338 will distribute that energy over a bigger area than a 6.5. Rare but possible IMO.