Ladder test fail. Stop telling newbs to use advanced techniques.

[Slickrick0999]

So, my plan is to fire 13 shots (varying loads by .5 for the RUM & .3 for the 308).
These shots will be fired without regard to the group size. I will be looking for a velocity node only. Hopefully, that will give me a node to work on step 2. Step 2 I will load more rounds from the low to high spot on the node in smaller increments to look at grouping.
I'm going to run this with my 308 first to see how it acts. I've been loading for this gun for years. I've done different styles of load development with it and have always ended up back at my load. The goal is to get a load for the 300 Rum in a minimal amount of shots.
Hopefully step 2 will reveal a good load and I can work with seating depth from there.
Any help, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. In the past, I've usually went with 3-5 rounds of each load and measured groups. This is frustrating for me (I hate shooting groups) and if it is not completed in one trip can be impacted by other variables.

 

[cape cove]

So, my plan is to fire 13 shots (varying loads by .5 for the RUM & .3 for the 308).
These shots will be fired without regard to the group size. I will be looking for a velocity node only. Hopefully, that will give me a node to work on step 2. Step 2 I will load more rounds from the low to high spot on the node in smaller increments to look at grouping.
I'm going to run this with my 308 first to see how it acts. I've been loading for this gun for years. I've done different styles of load development with it and have always ended up back at my load. The goal is to get a load for the 300 Rum in a minimal amount of shots.
Hopefully step 2 will reveal a good load and I can work with seating depth from there.
Any help, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. In the past, I've usually went with 3-5 rounds of each load and measured groups. This is frustrating for me (I hate shooting groups) and if it is not completed in one trip can be impacted by other variables.

Not sure what powder you are going to try in your 300 RUM, but mine likes the 180-200 gr Nosler accubond with Retumbo and a CCI-250. With max loads the 180's run 3300 ft/sec and the 200 's run appx 3100 ft/sec and accuracy is .75 for both weights. Any reading I've done concerning this round has had good things to say concerning Retumbo in the 300 RUM. Hope this helps reduce your shooting somewhat.

 

[Slickrick0999]

Not sure what powder you are going to try in your 300 RUM, but mine likes the 180-200 gr Nosler accubond with Retumbo and a CCI-250. With max loads the 180's run 3300 ft/sec and the 200 's run appx 3100 ft/sec and accuracy is .75 for both weights. Any reading I've done concerning this round has had good things to say concerning Retumbo in the 300 RUM. Hope this helps reduce your shooting somewhat.

Thank you and yes, the retumbo keeps showing up. I see it, H1000, & RE25 quite a bit. On bullets, i'm thinking the 215 berger or 225 hornady eldm. My intention for this gun is mainly a steel shooter at long range.

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

Looks like you're just repeating a min-ladder, each with a POA change in the middle, and obviously too close.
The best powder load there does not seem easier to see than a standard ladder.

It's a good example of not so great load and it's easy to see there. The problem with a normal ladder load is trying to keep track of each bullet. When they are all jumbled together and you didn't do a good job marking them (or even if you do) it can be a confusing mess and that drags into the long winded discussions I see here regularly on tying to interrupting them.

 

[cajun]

I find ladder tests an economical way to tell me if a particular powder is going to work with a certain bullet. If the initial ladder does not show a wide enough node. I'll try another powder. Changing seating depth may improve the results often but it's probably not going to make sugar out of crap. This is especially true with factory rifles where magazine length will dictate how close you can get to the lands. YMMV.

 

[entoptics]

...The problem with a normal ladder load is trying to keep track of each bullet. When they are all jumbled together and you didn't do a good job marking them...

Marking the bullet tips with colored permanent markers works like butter for marking shots automatically, at least down to 270 diameter. Haven't tried it on anything smaller. On a clean white target, Purple, Blue, Green, Orange, Yellow, and Red stand out like dog's balls. Purple and Blue can be a bit difficult to see if the black bullet ring is prominent though.

Coolest thing? You can do a two-tone, and see it easy as pie. That gives you 6 markings for the single colors, plus (if my factorial math is correct), another 15 two-tones.

As long as you pay attention to the order you fire them in, when you get down range you can easily determine which shot was which.

I wouldn't bother doing it for something as useless as ladder testing , but it's a great way to monitor cold bore shots, and/or when you're testing different loads of the same caliber on the same target.

Had to tweak this in photoshop for the picture to convey reality. With the naked eye, even when it's cloudy, the colors are obvious.

 

[LongBomber]

I actually thought the OP ladder test was a success. It shows you have a combination of components that will not come into tune. That ladder clearly shows that you need to swap out components.

 

[entoptics]

I actually thought the OP ladder test was a success. It shows you have a combination of components that will not come into tune. That ladder clearly shows that you need to swap out components.

Hehe. Failure = success. Technically, you're absolutely right.

What you may have missed, is that the whole point of my original post was to prove that, in my experience, if a bullet won't shoot, no amount of tweaking will make it otherwise. I'd already abandoned the ELD-X, and only did the ladder test to demonstrate that, for the average reloader, chasing statistically dubious "nodes" won't salvage a bullet that just won't shoot in your gun.

I use 140 gr accubonds in this gun when it matters. They still won't win any matches, but from the day I fired the first rounds out of it, they proved to be the best shooters. They should flatten a deer or elk at <400 yds and/or ring a big gong at 1000 yds, which is all this rifle will ever be asked to do.

When my old man handed me the thing to develop him an "elk load", I loaded up half a dozen rounds each, of half a dozen popular hunting bullets, and 2 or 3 different powders. Perhaps 100 rounds. In the 2 years since the rifle became "mine" via permanent loan, I've tried a couple hundred rounds of all sorts of other combinations of length/powder/etc, and still haven't found anything statistically better than what I handed my dad when I gave the rifle back after my initial load development. 140 NAB over ~60 gr of H1000, ~2950 fps, loaded so they'll barely fit in the magazine.

 

[Pdvdh]

Get another rifle if you seek repeatable precision.
Keep that one for sentimental value and/or shot gunning.

 

[LongBomber]

Hehe. Failure = success. Technically, you're absolutely right.

What you may have missed, is that the whole point of my original post was to prove that, in my experience, if a bullet won't shoot, no amount of tweaking will make it otherwise. I'd already abandoned the ELD-X, and only did the ladder test to demonstrate that, for the average reloader, chasing statistically dubious "nodes" won't salvage a bullet that just won't shoot in your gun.

Nope didn't miss your point, I actually agree that there are combinations that will not build a satisfactory load in a specific rifle. Especially so in most factory rifles. A custom rifle may be able to get almost any bullet to 1/2moa with load development, but from the factory guns I had there are bullets that will never be better than 1 1/2.

I do a lot of tinkering, I shoot twice a week normally and am always playing with something. In the ladder tests I have run if clear results are not showing up on a paper target (usually shot at 500y) then I swap bullets first. I find that makes the most difference. If I see some nodes but they are narrow in powder charge or speeds are super low I swap powders. I usually do a seating depth test once I have a good node identified. Load up the center of the node for powder charge and I run in .020" steps from the lands out to .1" jump.

I also agree that for many people a ladder or true ocw is the wrong way to develop a load, the rifle/shooter are likely not accurate enough and its doubtful that the person could interpret the results. Really you need a rifle/shooter that is capable of under 3/4moa very consistently. For those that are "advanced" shooters/ reloaders it can be a very effective way to build consistent loads.

Also I think many reloaders should forget statistics and the term "sd". Most people base "sd" On a low number of shots, to be meaningful you need many more data points in a population. Most times I see 5 shots and an sd number given. Thats about 30 short of where stats start to make decent confidence limits and the numbers can actually be used.