Ladder or OCW... what will tell me more?

[GetReel]

I've read, read and read some more on this subject.
I'm loading for 6mm Creedmoor out of my new Custom. I've loaded and shot 50 rounds of a mildly put together load for break-in and to just start shooting this rifle and get used to it. Now it's old data time.
I've loaded 10 rounds with 40.5gr of H4350 and 105 Berger VLD Hunters. (sighters)
3 each of; 42.3, 41.9. 41.5, 41.1, 40.7, 40.3, 39.9, 39.5

will I learn more from shooting groups @ 300 or 3 ladder tests @ 500??? I'll use my chrono on every shot.
If I shoot groups, I'll shoot round robbin, if I shoot ladder I'll shoot low to high, high to low and then low to high again.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Mikecr]

The two processes in question lead to different things.
OCW is for a tolerant load. Ladder is for an accurate load.

Assuming you won't be lucky as hell, which is your priority?
Also, you didn't mention seating. Have you fully tested for best coarse seating yet?

 

[User4302021]

View attachment 158451 View attachment 158452 View attachment 158453 I've read, read and read some more on this subject.
I'm loading for 6mm Creedmoor out of my new Custom. I've loaded and shot 50 rounds of a mildly put together load for break-in and to just start shooting this rifle and get used to it. Now it's old data time.
I've loaded 10 rounds with 40.5gr of H4350 and 105 Berger VLD Hunters. (sighters)
3 each of; 42.3, 41.9. 41.5, 41.1, 40.7, 40.3, 39.9, 39.5

will I learn more from shooting groups @ 300 or 3 ladder tests @ 500??? I'll use my chrono on every shot.
If I shoot groups, I'll shoot round robbin, if I shoot ladder I'll shoot low to high, high to low and then low to high again.

What are your thoughts?

That is a big can of worms. There are strong proponents and opponents of each method.

The name calling usually starts fairly quickly.

 

[GetReel]

The two processes in question lead to different things.
OCW is for a tolerant load. Ladder is for an accurate load.

Assuming you won't be lucky as hell, which is your priority?
Also, you didn't mention seating. Have you fully tested for best coarse seating yet?

I have not tested seating. I was going to fine tune with seating depth.
My goal with this rifle is for predator hunting, long range practice. I built it on a 24" Carbon Six featherweight barrel 1-8 twist to use with my suppressor.
So my goal is to have the best of both worlds actually. I want an accurate load for practicing long range but also as tolerable as possible

 

[Mikecr]

Then this is what I would do: Back off the load and run Berger's recommended full seating testing. https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...-from-berger-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle.40204/
Then, with best coarse seating, run OCW testing for a good tolerant load. Then fine tweak seating in it's window (~10thou width) for tightest group shaping.
Hopefully you'll hit on your goals here.

 

[Plinker147]

My best repeatable accurate loads have come from ladder load development. Just use what you loaded and color coat the bullets of each charge weight so you can tell them apart. I always start with.020 off with most bullets, shoot ladder then adjust seating depth when doing the final load development.

 

[TRG65]

I don't have access to a range where I could do OCW at 300 or more. So I use a ladder, and then tune with groups. I do two separate steps because I use a magneto speed. Even if I had a lab radar, the ranges I shoot at are often crowded (members and public can use the 100), so it is questionable if a lab radar would even work for me or if it would pick up too many of the stray shots. After I find the node, then I use groups to tune seating depth, then I come back and use groups again to fine tune the load. Then my last step is to shoot multiple groups to confirm and get a final chronograph. Most of the loads I've worked up this way are 1/2 moa or better (which is what I'm after), sd's sub 10 (most have been 5-7), and ES right around 20 fps. It usually takes 100 rounds to work through the whole process.

 

[bill123]

I don't have access to a range where I could do OCW at 300 or more. So I use a ladder, and then tune with groups. I do two separate steps because I use a magneto speed. Even if I had a lab radar, the ranges I shoot at are often crowded (members and public can use the 100), so it is questionable if a lab radar would even work for me or if it would pick up too many of the stray shots. After I find the node, then I use groups to tune seating depth, then I come back and use groups again to fine tune the load. Then my last step is to shoot multiple groups to confirm and get a final chronograph. Most of the loads I've worked up this way are 1/2 moa or better (which is what I'm after), sd's sub 10 (most have been 5-7), and ES right around 20 fps. It usually takes 100 rounds to work through the whole process.

A few points:
OCW as designed, is meant to be shot at 100yards.
I've never tried a Ladder at 100 yards but I'm not sure the results would be very helpful.
A properly set up LabRadar will not pick up shots from adjacent shooters.

 

[TRG65]

I was referring to a Satterlee method "ladder," where you find your node based on velocity flat spots. I've never had as much luck with a traditional Dan Newberry OCW which is akin to the Audette method, which is the ladder you must have been referring to, I don't have the range access for the Audette method. I have mentally blurred the two over the years.

I have tried an Optimal barrel time method and have had good luck with that using quick load. Frequently, the nodes from the Satterlee method come in near an OBT point. However, it isn't necessary an OBT point for the exact barrel length, ie 26 or 28 (being 26 with 2 for a brake). Also, if I get velocity flat from the Satterlee method, that isn't near an OBT node, it usually won't give as good or as consistent of results as one that is near an OBT point

What has kept me from getting a Labradar, has been the folks I've seen at the range with them, and their consistent complaint of picking up other shots. I'm glad to hear there is a way to tune that out. When my magneto speed gives out, I will definitely look at getting one.

 

[bill123]

I was referring to a Satterlee method "ladder," where you find your node based on velocity flat spots. I've never had as much luck with a traditional Dan Newberry OCW which is akin to the Audette method, which is the ladder you must have been referring to, I don't have the range access for the Audette method. I have mentally blurred the two over the years.

I have tried an Optimal barrel time method and have had good luck with that using quick load. Frequently, the nodes from the Satterlee method come in near an OBT point. However, it isn't necessary an OBT point for the exact barrel length, ie 26 or 28 (being 26 with 2 for a brake). Also, if I get velocity flat from the Satterlee method, that isn't near an OBT node, it usually won't give as good or as consistent of results as one that is near an OBT point

What has kept me from getting a Labradar, has been the folks I've seen at the range with them, and their consistent complaint of picking up other shots. I'm glad to hear there is a way to tune that out. When my magneto speed gives out, I will definitely look at getting one.

I tried the Satterlee method once and didnt have much luck with it. My method is similar to Mike's. It would be really interesting to do a workup in each method and see how they compare.

 

[SealT5]

Read this thread by Erik cortina. I follow a similar method, kinda like mikes #5 post, and have never had one single issue getting a barrel to shoot. Guys like Erik share their wisdom graciously.


http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

 

[GetReel]

I'm not working up loads anymore using Satterlee method. It's not consistent in results, you gotta get lucky. I've never been able to find repeatable accuracy that way. Don't turn this thread into anything. I'm just not going down that road.

 

[Mikecr]

We often refer to tuning like it all leads to the same 'nodes'.
But truly, it's too complicated to sum this way.

Optimum Charge Weight is dealing with powder tuning. This being where powder burn is consistent to results measured as muzzle velocities(low SD/ES).
While tolerant to variable field conditions, it's possible for the results to mean nothing directly good nor directly bad for best accuracy.

Creighton Audette Ladder testing is dealing with barrel deflections, as well as muzzle velocities through incremental charges.
That's two changes at once, with burn timing affecting both in abstract correlations.

Optimum Barrel Time is dealing with calculated barrel vibration cycles, as they affect bore/groove diameters at the muzzle.
This is not tuning, but merely clearing of an undesirable timing condition (a vibration cycle at the muzzle -during bullet release).
I feel like OBT is a misnomer in that it really defines Bad Barrel Times (BBT).

Incremental Load development amounts to other miscellaneous methods people have come up with. This is usually 2-5 shot group shooting with increasing steps of powder charge.

Cold Bore Load Development is an Incremental form with a focus on pure accuracy at worst range and shot rate.

Full Seating Testing seems relatively new, and most reloaders have never done it (including many who think they have).
I'll leave out my hypothesis for what seating is actually doing, but suggest that it's mostly independent of other adjustments.

Primer striking, or swapping, establishes a quality of powder ignition.

Rests, gun balance, and hold establish a quality of recoil and vibration during bullet travel in the barrel.

Add-on barrel tuners affect barrel deflection (Ladder results), and have no effect to OCW.

With all this you might picture a peak accuracy load that is nowhere near OCW. Or a load that is OCW, but puts bullet release at a poor timing.
You could have peak accuracy that is fleeting. You can have fantastic hot bore grouping that is horribly inaccurate in the field.
If forced to swap primers, a load could go better or worse in different categories of quality.

 

[User4302021]

Read this thread by Erik cortina. I follow a similar method, kinda like mikes #5 post, and have never had one single issue getting a barrel to shoot. Guys like Erik share their wisdom graciously.


http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

This is a pretty famous thread, an comes up often when this subject is discussed. When boiled down, it amounts to an OCW without the round robin firing order.

Just for general information.