Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

[MontanaRifleman]

So with this method you would take a load manual like Nosler and choose the powder they say is the most accurate tested, start at the top load range and work up in .5 increments?

I would pick a powder for stability and desired performance, not what Nosler or another company syas is "most accurate" in their test rifle barrels, which are much different than our hunting rifle barrels.

Always start low and work up. You must remember that Kirby does this for a living and he makes precision rifles that shoot just about anything well. After building and testing "x" number of rifles, he has a very good idea of what is going to work.

 

[Krakkon]

Good advice thanks...

 

[WTXDrifter]

Where can we find his article? It isn't coming up in a search here.

Don't feel alone.

I have logged in many times, and registered a few times and still can't read what Mr. Allen has writen. IMO this site has become too cluttered and complacated for easy access. I have found others just as interesting and informative.

 

[NorCal67]

I have a brand new custom rifle built by Jim See at Centershot rifles. It's a work of art for sure, and the culmination of a dream. Now I'm ready to find the ideal pet cartridge that my new gun loves. I've got a really low post count, but I've lurked on here for well over a year. I've researched and read about loading and ladder tests, and OAL, and measuring to the ogive, and starting powder charges, and waiting until the 2nd full moon of the month to test it all out. This fellow Wildcat Paul takes the advice of arguably one of the most well respected rifle builders out there in Kirby Allen, and it works for him, (really well) and a bunch of fellows pile on like he's a f-ing moron because it worked? It's unbelievable. Nice work Paul. I hope to be able to shoot a few "fliers" in to a tight group like you.

 

[Joe King]

Norcal

Thanks! interesting find, I'm gonna have to chew on that one a while and maybe give it a whirl sometime

 

[Bart B]

It's not surprising to me that a load 2 grains short of extruding brass back into the bolt holes is accurate. Only thing I would add is the powder choice. The slowest powders often shoot a given bullet out much faster than those closer to medium speeds. Such as 4350 compared to 4064 in the .30-06 with medium weight bullets. Problem often is, slow powders often don't produce as consistant pressure curves. Muzzle velocity spread is too great for best accuracy at the longer ranges. One sometimes has to make a compromise between having bullets leave as fast as possible or land on target as close together as possible. Usually one cannot have both.

 

[Fiftydriver]

When you can do that 8 or 10 times in a row you will be assured you have something until then it is just as likely and more probable you had three fliers that landed in the same place. I have a new rifle I just had built that will shoot a group like that about 3 out of 50 shots, the rest of the time it would make a better high lift jack handle.

WOW, your coming across pretty hard. I think you need to go back to the HIDE with your 10 shot groups where its a requirement.

On this forum, the goal is to put the first shot through the vitals at 1000 yards.

My load development that I reported on simply stated how I develope a load for a new rifle in my wildcat chamberings to get me started. I load up 1 grain at a time until I JUST feel the bolt lift increasing. Not until the bolt lift gets sticky. Then reduce the load by 2 grains. This will drop me off max by 1.5 to 2% with my wildcat capacities. Again, I was not talking about all chamberings.

THEN I TAKE THIS LOAD AND RIFLE OUT AT LONG RANGE and prove it to see if it shoots. 90% of the time that load will shoot to my 1/2 moa accuracy potential requirement and also will put first shot within 1/4 moa from point of aim at long range.

Again, I could care less about 5 shot or 10 shot 100 yard groups. Those mean nothing to me and with my wildcats, your simply wasting barrel life shooting strings that long. I tell my customers to limit shot strings to 3 shots to prevent barrel overheating. If your shooting a smaller rifle, no problem but with these chamberings, 10 shot strings are very hard on throats.

Again, maybe you need to tone it back a bit, your coming off like an ***.

I would put my loads and rifles up against anyones when used in the field in field shooting positions any day of the week. There are many ways to skin a cat and if you do not realize that your simply showing your lack of experience and humility.

 

[Fiftydriver]

"Just like he described in his original post, I shot loads of increasing increments (1/2 grain) until I got a lightly sticky bolt – this happened at 68 grains. I then backed off 2 grains to 66 grains and loaded three."

I didn't see his original post; did he suggest that 2 grains below stickly bolts would shoot well?

If so, did he mention that 2 grains would be lot more change for small cartridges than larger ones?

In the article I was referring to my wildcats which would mean that a 2 grain reduction would be a 1.5 to 2% reduction off what I determinded was top working pressures. I do not load until the bolt is sticky, just until I can feel some resistance on the bolt. Most will load their ammo hotter then where I decide to stop and turn around at.

Some common sense needs to be used and this is simply a starting point. Fortunately in most of my rifles, there is no need to look any farther. Tinkeritis is for BR shooters, not for long range big game hunters that shoot seriously potent chamberings in their rifles.

 

[Fiftydriver]

All that really counts is the largest groups because that's all the shooter can depend on when he pulls a trigger, the "average" group means nothing for an individual shot. I haven't averaged any rifle's groups since I realized that truth some 30+ years ago.[/QUOTE]

Thats not exactly true, the most improtant thing and the thing that counts the most if your first shot. Not saying that followup shots are not very important but if things are set up correctly and you know your rifle and load and can shoot, they can be very important but RARELY NEEDED!!!

I can learn more about my rifle with 10 shots of practical field shooting then you shooting 200 rounds on a bench on paper......

When you have a rifle that has a 1000 round barrel life, you learn quickly how to get a load developed, drop chart tested and proven and ready to use in the field with very few rounds down the bore. Again, several ways to skin a cat, do what works for you but do not tell others they are nothing but lucky, makes you look very inexperienced with those comments.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Just guessing here but I'll bet the no load development technique works a lot better in high end custom guns than it does in my factory rifles. One thing is for sure it seems to have been the ticket for Paul. Nice shooting.

We have a winner here!!! IN my original article it was about FULL CUSTOM built rifles that I build for my customers, not factory rifles where you have to deal with poor machining, bad chambers, loose bores, stressed barrels with inconsistant barrel vibration patterns, bad stocks and loose bedding......

 

[Fiftydriver]

Thats why you use a case design with enough horsepower to offer all the performance you could ever want and do so accurately and consistantly. Kind of why the Allen Magnums and Allen Xpress wildcats were design. Consistancy, Velocity and Consistancy equals lots of cleanly harvested big game animals at long range.

 

[royinidaho]

Tinkeritis is for BR shooters, not for long range big game hunters that shoot seriously potent chamberings in their rifles.

I sure learned that the HARD way!!!!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

I sure learned that the HARD way!!!!!

We all do!!!

 

[sendero72]

I like a man that says it like it is, no "BS"........well done Kirby!!