Is there actually any downrange advantage for very heavy for caliber bullets?

[Shane Lindsey]

BLUF…Heavy WILL always fight the wind better at distance gaining you horizontal advantage over the lighter. May not give you enough at your hunting ranges. But eventually the heavy will over take the light weight.

I am on the fence about energy, but my thoughts are, I would rather be hit by a Hyundai than an 18 wheeler…

 

[Varmint Hunter]

IMO - We tend to overthink bullet selection to death. The reality is that if we just place a reasonably appropriate bullet where it should go, the job gets done.

Personally, I tend to use whatever shoots best because it gives me confidence. The controversy around Berger (frangible) bullets, monometal bullets, or traditional cup & core bullets doesn't really interest me. I've used them all with great success when I've done my part. Even the light & fast vs heavy & slow controversy is better suited to internet chatter than it is as an essential for lethality - IMO.

Shoot straight and enjoy.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Simple fact here is that longer heavier bullets normally have higher BC. This is what justifies these bullets. If you have the twist fast enough to stabilise a heavier bullet, then those lesser weighted bullets won't catch up to a point where velocity is too low, but the energy increase may just be the turning point.
I have always been heavy bullet for calibre guy, but there is a real and fast rule I stick to, which is, the cartridge MUST be able to deliver 2800fps minimum with the chosen bullet and, I prefer 3000fps if I can get it. If I am designing a case, such as my wildcats based on the 416 Rigby Improved, I look for the maximum weight that will get a minimum of 3200fps, more is often achieved which is how I like it to go.

Cheers.

In my hunting rifle for large game I use rilfe and bullets that I can acheive 3200 to 3300 fps. The drop rate is almost the same. I don't have to think out where to hold my rifle on a target using the same scope type (duplex) on my hunting rifles. Again I hold my shots 500yds.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Like Horse1 said your 1:10" twist will stabilize 165 grain solids. This thread was started talking about heavy for caliber bullets, when you get to real heavy for caliber mono's they will require a faster twist.

Yes most factory rifles don't have modern twist for heavy bullets unless the cartridge is a modern one like the 300 PRC which generally has a 1:8" twist.

Just look at the bullet manufacturers website they will tell you what twist you need.

Presently getting a faster twist rate barrel. Good Luck! Newer rifles are coming out with faster twist rates. i had one barrel maker take a year, and then sent out something different in twist rate. Then had a hard time returning it Thank God for the net. I was able to prove what was order.

 

[FEENIX]

FEENIX,
Have you shot any of these other bullets at extended ranges to get actual trajectories for comparison? When looking at the Berger 135 in particular compared to the shape of the Black Hole 145, I find it hard to beIieve that the 145 is the more aerodynamically efficient bullet. I'm not questioning your statement in any negative way, I'm just very curious if these extreme heavy weights are indeed the better bullet. Thank you to you and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. Good stuff guys!

No, Sir, I have not, but plenty of folks here have - plenty of baseline information to go by, unlike the 145s and 163s. My statement was based on the bulletmaker's comment/test.

He said 680 G1 on the 145s

G7 is .371 per Blaine's FB post.

Also,

New prototype.257 ,145 gr ULD proves to work well. This is from a 25-06AI, 8tw PacNor barrel at 300 yds. Velocity- 3018, 10 fps spread.

I know others here are also doing it, but @Bghunter338 and I are establishing a knowledge base for the 145 and sharing it here. Unfortunately, the 145s and the 163s do not come with plenty of information, but that is half the fun, and @Bghunter338 and I are making the best of it and sharing our load developments/experiences. When in doubt, it is best to try it for yourself. With an established baseline for the 145s and 163s, it would make it easier for me to make adjustments to develop loads for the 131s, 133s, 134s, and 135s.

 

[sambo3006]

Thanks FEENIX!

 

[Bghunter338]

Most of us build/purchase rifles around what bullet to use for our intended purpose. For instance, my .257 WBY with 1:7" was built primarily to propel the .25 cal bullets. I have the 131 BJ, 134 ELD-M, 133/135 Bergers. However, when the 145 Black Hole came about, I jumped on it and skipped the rest. And now, I am working up a load for the 163 Chinchaga until the 180s come out. Thanks to @Bghunter338 for the introduction to the bullet introduction.

You're welcome brother!!
Yes I'm still playing with heavy weight bullet for caliber. Like one said earlier they like to stay around the 3000 fps mark, I too try for that mark in all my rifles granted sometimes not possible. I have settled on the 145gr blackhole for my 257 Blackbird with a 26" 1-7.5 twist. Granted if it was a 7 twist like I wanted originally I would be picking the 163gr chinchaga bullets which I was able to break that speed mark I always try for but at my elevation a couple started key holeing. I have a 25 souper being built as we speak and I'll start with the 145s in it but I have a feeling ill be dropping down to the 130s but will see.

Yes bc plays alot in shooting long distance. And what I have learned no matter the bc of the bullets I've used or use, weight is also a key factor. For me the heavier the easier it is to long distances.
One of my all time favorite calibers out there is a 7mm stw. I'll keep it short on this one but yes you can shoot the 200gr class bullets with accuracy and speed up to 3108fps and with 4034 ft lbs of energy there ain't much walking away from that.
So yes IMO weight does play a huge role in when I'm choosing a bullet. The other is performance but that's for another thread

 

[hawlejr]

For me, yes! Below is a 145 Black Hole out my .257 WBY with 22" barrel.
View attachment 585930

I do not have the BC yet, but during my pressure test, I am propelling the 163 Chinchaga at 2915 FPS using H1000. I have some loaded with Retumbo on my next range opportunity.

I once had a .257 Weatherby. Unfortunately, this was in the days when the twist rate was 1:12. I traded it off because it wouldn't stabilize anything over 100 gr. I know they moved it down a little to 1:10, but that's not going to be good enough for 145 gr. .257 bullets. So my question is: what is your twist rate?
Thanks

 

[Bghunter338]

I once had a .257 Weatherby. Unfortunately, this was in the days when the twist rate was 1:12. I traded it off because it wouldn't stabilize anything over 100 gr. I know they moved it down a little to 1:10, but that's not going to be good enough for 145 gr. .257 bullets. So my question is: what is your twist rate?
Thanks

His 257 wby is a 7 twist. But for the 145s a 7.5 will work beautifully.

 

[FEENIX]

I once had a .257 Weatherby. Unfortunately, this was in the days when the twist rate was 1:12. I traded it off because it wouldn't stabilize anything over 100 gr. I know they moved it down a little to 1:10, but that's not going to be good enough for 145 gr. .257 bullets. So my question is: what is your twist rate?
Thanks

As @Bghunter338 noted, mine in 1:7" ...

Most of us build/purchase rifles around what bullet to use for our intended purpose. For instance, my .257 WBY with 1:7" was built primarily to propel the .25 cal bullets. I have the 131 BJ, 134 ELD-M, 133/135 Bergers. However, when the 145 Black Hole came about, I jumped on it and skipped the rest. And now, I am working up a load for the 163 Chinchaga until the 180s come out. Thanks to @Bghunter338 for the introduction to the bullet introduction.

 

[just_jon]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the 140 VLDH and 195 EOL in my 280AI at 600 and 1000 yards. Data is from Eagle Ballistics app and Garmin chron.

600 Yards	Muzzle Velocity	Elevation (MOA)	Windage (5 mph)	Windage (10 mph)	Retained Velocity	Retained Energy
140 VLDH	3,258	8.4​	1.1​	2.7​	2,243	1,564
195 EOL	2,890	10.3​	0.8​	2.0​	2,220	2,134
1000 Yards
140 VLDH	3,258	21.3​	2.0​	5.4​	1,677	875
195 EOL	2,890	23.3​	1.4​	3.6​	1,833	1,455

Most of my misses at long range are due to bad wind calls. Because heavy for caliber bullets drifts less, especially at longer ranges, it made sense to me to reduce the variable that causes me the most headaches.

 

[AZShooter]

Feenix: your chart on first page didn't mention wind drift. Think that is where the long high BC bullets shine.

Was all set to compare my 257's 115 Berger load with yours. Maybe you can show it again with the wind drift? If you do I'll put up my load for comparison. If possible can you use inches of drift in a 10 MPH 90 degree crosswind? Thanks

Just Jon: your drift figures must be MOA corrections. Assuming 90 degree crosswind. Right?

 

[FEENIX]

Feenix: your chart on first page didn't mention wind drift. Think that is where the long high BC bullets shine.

Was all set to compare my 257's 115 Berger load with yours. Maybe you can show it again with the wind drift? If you do I'll put up my load for comparison. If possible can you use inches of drift in a 10 MPH 90 degree crosswind? Thanks

Just Jon: your drift figures must be MOA corrections. Assuming 90 degree crosswind. Right?

It's because I left the wind speed, wind direction, and inclination blank. If you want to compare everything else with your 115 Berger load, everything else is there.

Below is the 115 Berger at 3300 FPS out 26" from Berger reloading manual.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Now show the 135 LRHT at 3200-3250, a speed easily attainable with a 71-72gr case.
Kenyon's 22" barrel isn't loose yet and he's been to 3275-3300.