I use LC Match brass all the time in my 308 bolt gun. LC 67, 81, and 85 annealed and neck turned, Varget and Fed 210s produce great accuracy with 168 eldm's. I can get to 950 - 1000. This bullet has a fairly high BC for a 168. I also like LC Brass in the 7.62 X 51 chambered gas gun that I have because it's accurate and very tough.
Is the .308 Win 7.62 X 51 still a Long Range Hunting Cartridge?
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Just an old M14 guy slinging 308 projos. 20 shots irons at 1K.
My experience with LC, the Win .308, and 22 inch air gauged barrels leads me to count on IMR Powder and the SMK 175 projectiles for use on the 1k KD Range. Uncle Sam never gave Hummer and I a chance match formal or informal. While I was at Crane he was at Aberdeen. Yet Hummer took the Silver in the 1966 Palma Match. 168 projectiles have a tail design to Projectile weight that makes them go subsonic at the 1K KD. Not to mention that most 168 grain shooters used a 1:10 vice 1:11.25 twist.
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Yet this thread isn't about the .308 Win/ 7.62 x 51 for Military use. How am I going to drop a Roosevelt Elk on Raspberry Island with Model 7 Remington chambered in .308 Win? How does that compare to attempting that same hunt with nowadays long range hunting rifles without adding to the stress on my shoulder? How far beyond 400 yards? 
liber
Well-Known Member
I admit to shooting 6.5 Creedmoor, and I shoot 308 also. I like both of them, and especially like the lower recoil on the 6.5 Creedmoor. I'm builting a 6.5 PRC, which has the same recoil as the 308. So I won't be winning in recoil, I will in ballistics. I'm gonna put a short, 20" barrel, on it. So where does that put me? Back down to 6.5 man bun level? (possibly)Oh, I shouldn't do this, but I'm an Old Sailor with more brass than brains. All those 6.5 folks elk hunting at 700 yards in the high altitudes of the rocky mountains,. Feed me all that information in sub zero weather, with a 30 knot wind in your face, at sea level that keeps your Projectile at the 2600 fps impact speed on a Roosevelt Elk that is much bigger and tougher than those little Rocky Mountain Elk. What kind of actual fps or kinetic energy remains on your less than .3 SD Projectile on an 1100 lb elk? I'm thick skinned, flail me with your best.
But that's the rifle I want to carry and hunt with. I have lots of ARs...and was going to get an MDT HNT26 chassis, but it's a bit too much for me, so I'm going with a more traditional Monte Carlo style lightweight stock. I still like my ARs, and will continue to shoot, and possibly hunt with them. But I won't be using them for the near term to get the 6.5 PRC dialed in...maybe I'll even get to use a suppressor on it.
And FWIW, I don't plan to hunt elk. I plan to hunt pig, deer, and black bear.
Me too! Good stuff, IMO. I have some LC 70 sitting in front of me right now. Is that the year? I shoot it in a 16" barrel and a 24" Criterion. I use 168s in the 24". I'm shot 175 also, but the 24" barrel likes the 168s better. I think it's 1:10, honestly can't remember. I don't know too much about the LC, other than it's good quality brass. I got a bunch of once fired LC that I think came from Camp Perry, the tops of the boxes are cut with a razor, but the boxes were filled with once fired brass. I think they picked it up at Camp Perry.
Big critters above the circles require big recoils from .30 caliber projectiles. They should really be hunted with calibers at or over .358. JMHO YMMV 6.5 isn't even the 7 x 57 that Bell used on elephant measured in feet. . So if it doesn't arrive at 2600 fps or more it's a pre-planned failure. Yup at high altitudes with perfect placement it can take critters under 1000 lbs. But since long range under the conditions is point blank shooting, diameter is paramount. LRH along with the caliber and Projectile may be determined by the conditions. While the 30-06 and 300 Win Mag may be better selections, can the .308 Win still be a competent selection in a competent hunters hands?
At a carry weight of under 7 lbs?Attachments
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liber
Well-Known Member
Nice rifle selection. I do agree that the 308 is a good compromise. But is it bad to think a 300 PRC or 300 NM would be better in a magnum action? 7mm seems like a good caliber also, and maybe the 7BC will allow me to get good velocity at distance using a shorter barrel. Otherwise it seems better to stick with the short action and go with more recoil in something like 300 WSM or 270 WSM/SAUM. The 308 is decent with a 18"-20" barrel on it, I even find the 16" acceptable with a brake. Hunting can definitely be an expensive hobby. I guess it is what each of us want it to be. It doesn't have to.
Warning this is a long post! It is probably going to upset some folks on here and a few of them will probably need to seek therapy 
but here is the way cartridges ought to be compared when putting two cartridges side by side, at least in my way of thinking. These are real numbers from two real guns at the range. I had to go get my load book out to double check myself.
Full disclosure: ( you can skip this part if you don't care about where I got my experience
) I have owned dozens of 308s and a couple 6.5 Creedmoors. I have seen animals killed with both up to and including a Norwegian Elk (small moose/ 160gr 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser). I have shot animals with both calibers. A few with 6.5 Creedmoor and about a dozen or so with other 6.5s. I have killed over 100 with a 308 and countless more with various other 30 cals. Needless to say I have a little experience in the matter. My favorite target and long range rifle is a custom 6.5x284 Norma. My favorite hunting rifle is a 308 win. I live east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon line, needless to say I have done most of my hunting in the Southern US, primarily Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas and Florida. But I have hunted in Alaska, Michigan and Missouri as well as Africa and Norway (over 20 years ago). Most of my experience is on whitetails, hogs, coyotes and black bears with whitetails being my life long passion, though I have shot a few other species or been present when they were shot. I worked for a gun shop in college and was at one time on a pro staff for another shop. I owned an archery shop at one point. I have competed at the highest levels in archery and shot 2,4 and 600 yard bench competitions and 10 pins 30 years ago. My smallest group ever measured .028 (338) for five shots. My smallest 10 shot group measured .128 (22 cal). I have also trained with a police marksman team and was trained to shoot by a navy sniper. I am not military nor have I ever been military but I grew up in a military home. I have been hunting and shooting for over 40 years and I am an avid reader and shooting nut. If it goes bang flop or ding, I usually like it! I like to study and talk about it. I reload, as well as shoot some factory ammo. I have a few state gold medal credits to my name in the sport of archery both 3-D and field archery (also 20+ years ago). There that is my resume for the ones who want to know where I got my information and experience. I am just a guy who likes to shoot and I am pretty good at it! 
That ought to about cover that crap! 
When comparing cartridges for a specific application it is important to compare apples to apples
. IE… like SD to bullet weight, powder capacity and optimal loads, as well as barrel length. (Let's all agree that neither the 308 nor the 6.5 Creedmoor were designed to be hunting cartridges. One was a military round, the other a target round.)
What I want to demonstrate is how when you define your application and compare cartridges on equal terms and at there optimal performance levels that you can find one may offer a slight advantage over another on paper but real world experience is the only way to confirm the data. So here is some real world data for you gurus to pontificate over.
Since most of you not only want to shoot long range but suppressed and light weight we are going to shoot a few short barreled hunting set ups I have owned. One I still own. Both guns are Identical Sig Crosses. A 16" 308 and an 18" 6.5. The data will be for these two guns. The bullets are the exact same in design. They are Nosler ABLRs loaded .50 off the lands. The 308 is shooting a 168 with an SD of .252. and a G1 of .525. The 6.5 is shooting a 129 with an SD of .264 and a G1 of .530. Essentially these bullets are identical in design and construction. The only thing that differs is the weight and caliber (frontal mass). Brass and primers are the same. Lapua (LRP) brass and Fed 210s. The 308 is running 46 grains of Varget (accuracy node) and the 6.5 is running 43 grains of H4350 (Max Load/began blowing primers beyond this point). Both are at 99-100% case fill. The 308 is running 2659 fps and the 6.5 is running 2700 fps with 2 inches more barrel. So here are the numbers for both:
(Let us agree here on a few additional perimeters. The ABLR is supposed to be effective down to 1300 fps, however we will use the 1800 fps commonly accepted for most bullets. Second the minimum traditionally held up for deer is 1000 lbs of energy. Third, it is held that a bullet needs to arrive on target within a second to ensure an animal is anchored by the shot and does not move while the bullet is in flight. Finally once either cartridge fails to reach any of those criteria it is considered to have reached its maximum effective range.) Spoiler Alert: Both cartridges fell short of the 600 yard mark.
Here are the actual numbers:
308 650 yards 117.46 inches of drop 33.69 inches of windage (10 mph full value) .93 sec flight time, 1679 fps 1052 lbs.
6.5 need more 650 yards (only for comparison. It fell short based on the criteria at 500) 112.99 inches of drop 27.24 windage .91 sec flight time, 1784 fps 845 lbs.
As you can see, when you compare apples to apples you are really just splitting hairs.
If you want a short barreled suppressed rig you would probably be better served by the 308. My experience says it kills a little more effectively than the 6.5 Creedmoor. I will concede however that the Creedmoor is a very effective and more modern design. Is it better? I don't know about that! It really depends on how you set them up and your intended purpose.
Bullet selection is important. The 6.5 has a tendency to zip through at shorter ranges because of the higher SD. Both cartridges, as you can see, are very efficient. Are they long range cartridges? It depends on how you construct your rig and build your ammo and your definition of LR. But the 308 in this configuration is the better choice and would be effective to 700 yards if you were so inclined. Both cartridges in this comparison are super sonic beyond a 1000 yards. We tested them both at that range. I wouldn't hunt with either of them that far out!
Here is the rest of the data from Shooters Calculator where the numbers came from. I only had muzzle velocities and experience.
I also included the Eldx factory loadings (Percision Hunter) from Hornady (24 inch barrel for both per Hornady). I would use either one of these loadings to 700 yards in a 24" or longer configuration, if the factory info is correct. Both rounds are great cartridges for their intended purposes. The 6.5 is a little more forgiving but the 308 maybe the better killer, you decide. Some one is going to say that the 308 recoils more, ok but it ain't much and if you are running suppressed or a brake it is a mute point.
Enjoy and let the pontificating begin. If you need a therapist? I have a number I can give you I yield to the peanut gallery… Rock n Roll!
but here is the way cartridges ought to be compared when putting two cartridges side by side, at least in my way of thinking. These are real numbers from two real guns at the range. I had to go get my load book out to double check myself. Full disclosure: ( you can skip this part if you don't care about where I got my experience
) I have owned dozens of 308s and a couple 6.5 Creedmoors. I have seen animals killed with both up to and including a Norwegian Elk (small moose/ 160gr 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser). I have shot animals with both calibers. A few with 6.5 Creedmoor and about a dozen or so with other 6.5s. I have killed over 100 with a 308 and countless more with various other 30 cals. Needless to say I have a little experience in the matter. My favorite target and long range rifle is a custom 6.5x284 Norma. My favorite hunting rifle is a 308 win. I live east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon line, needless to say I have done most of my hunting in the Southern US, primarily Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas and Florida. But I have hunted in Alaska, Michigan and Missouri as well as Africa and Norway (over 20 years ago). Most of my experience is on whitetails, hogs, coyotes and black bears with whitetails being my life long passion, though I have shot a few other species or been present when they were shot. I worked for a gun shop in college and was at one time on a pro staff for another shop. I owned an archery shop at one point. I have competed at the highest levels in archery and shot 2,4 and 600 yard bench competitions and 10 pins 30 years ago. My smallest group ever measured .028 (338) for five shots. My smallest 10 shot group measured .128 (22 cal). I have also trained with a police marksman team and was trained to shoot by a navy sniper. I am not military nor have I ever been military but I grew up in a military home. I have been hunting and shooting for over 40 years and I am an avid reader and shooting nut. If it goes bang flop or ding, I usually like it! I like to study and talk about it. I reload, as well as shoot some factory ammo. I have a few state gold medal credits to my name in the sport of archery both 3-D and field archery (also 20+ years ago). There that is my resume for the ones who want to know where I got my information and experience. I am just a guy who likes to shoot and I am pretty good at it! That ought to about cover that crap! When comparing cartridges for a specific application it is important to compare apples to apples
. IE… like SD to bullet weight, powder capacity and optimal loads, as well as barrel length. (Let's all agree that neither the 308 nor the 6.5 Creedmoor were designed to be hunting cartridges. One was a military round, the other a target round.) What I want to demonstrate is how when you define your application and compare cartridges on equal terms and at there optimal performance levels that you can find one may offer a slight advantage over another on paper but real world experience is the only way to confirm the data. So here is some real world data for you gurus to pontificate over.
Since most of you not only want to shoot long range but suppressed and light weight we are going to shoot a few short barreled hunting set ups I have owned. One I still own. Both guns are Identical Sig Crosses. A 16" 308 and an 18" 6.5. The data will be for these two guns. The bullets are the exact same in design. They are Nosler ABLRs loaded .50 off the lands. The 308 is shooting a 168 with an SD of .252. and a G1 of .525. The 6.5 is shooting a 129 with an SD of .264 and a G1 of .530. Essentially these bullets are identical in design and construction. The only thing that differs is the weight and caliber (frontal mass). Brass and primers are the same. Lapua (LRP) brass and Fed 210s. The 308 is running 46 grains of Varget (accuracy node) and the 6.5 is running 43 grains of H4350 (Max Load/began blowing primers beyond this point). Both are at 99-100% case fill. The 308 is running 2659 fps and the 6.5 is running 2700 fps with 2 inches more barrel. So here are the numbers for both:
(Let us agree here on a few additional perimeters. The ABLR is supposed to be effective down to 1300 fps, however we will use the 1800 fps commonly accepted for most bullets. Second the minimum traditionally held up for deer is 1000 lbs of energy. Third, it is held that a bullet needs to arrive on target within a second to ensure an animal is anchored by the shot and does not move while the bullet is in flight. Finally once either cartridge fails to reach any of those criteria it is considered to have reached its maximum effective range.) Spoiler Alert: Both cartridges fell short of the 600 yard mark.
Here are the actual numbers:
308 650 yards 117.46 inches of drop 33.69 inches of windage (10 mph full value) .93 sec flight time, 1679 fps 1052 lbs.
6.5 need more 650 yards (only for comparison. It fell short based on the criteria at 500) 112.99 inches of drop 27.24 windage .91 sec flight time, 1784 fps 845 lbs.
As you can see, when you compare apples to apples you are really just splitting hairs.
If you want a short barreled suppressed rig you would probably be better served by the 308. My experience says it kills a little more effectively than the 6.5 Creedmoor. I will concede however that the Creedmoor is a very effective and more modern design. Is it better? I don't know about that! It really depends on how you set them up and your intended purpose.
Bullet selection is important. The 6.5 has a tendency to zip through at shorter ranges because of the higher SD. Both cartridges, as you can see, are very efficient. Are they long range cartridges? It depends on how you construct your rig and build your ammo and your definition of LR. But the 308 in this configuration is the better choice and would be effective to 700 yards if you were so inclined. Both cartridges in this comparison are super sonic beyond a 1000 yards. We tested them both at that range. I wouldn't hunt with either of them that far out!
Here is the rest of the data from Shooters Calculator where the numbers came from. I only had muzzle velocities and experience.
I also included the Eldx factory loadings (Percision Hunter) from Hornady (24 inch barrel for both per Hornady). I would use either one of these loadings to 700 yards in a 24" or longer configuration, if the factory info is correct. Both rounds are great cartridges for their intended purposes. The 6.5 is a little more forgiving but the 308 maybe the better killer, you decide. Some one is going to say that the 308 recoils more, ok but it ain't much and if you are running suppressed or a brake it is a mute point.
Enjoy and let the pontificating begin. If you need a therapist? I have a number I can give you
I yield to the peanut gallery… Rock n Roll!
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The 70 does stand for the year. Regular LC standard brass will have crimped primers. The LC 70 Match designation is built more as an accuracy round when compared to standard LC. Primers are not crimped in the LC Match or LR long range designated brass. Some of the standard LC that you find can be machine gun fired so I tend to inspect them a lot closer. I'll look for case wobble when turning necks and discard pieces that have wobble in them. Some years of the LC Match or Standard tend to be better than others and are more sought after though I am not sure what years are considered best. A friend of mine that used to shoot service rifle matches brought me around 1400 pieces of mixed LC. Approximately 600 pieces were match variety in 66, 81, and 85. The 85 is easy to pick out because it has a small band around it approx. 1/2" below the case head. Case weight can vary by year. The majority of the rest of that brass was LC 84. After culling out the suspect pieces and prepping I have found it to shoot quite well.
My bolt gun has a 1 in 12 twist 26" barrel and prefers 150s and 168s. The gas gun is 1 in 10 and prefers 168s. It hates 150s. I have not tried heavier bullets in either gun. I also use Winchester brass in both guns. Shooting depredation you lose a lot of brass. I try to hang on to my older LC match stuff. Losing the Winchester doesn't worry me.
Lee Goodwin
Well-Known Member
Hornady took the 30 Thompson Center cartridge and made the 6.5 CM. If TC had just seen the future and made the 26 TC they would have really made a name for themselves. Anyway 6.5 is a nice set up.
Lee Goodwin
Well-Known Member
I saw a guy kill a cow elk at 300+ yards...he was lobbing them though...
liber
Well-Known Member
You've been a great help, and I think I just found a bag of 168gr TMKs, but I need to weight them. I mostly only shot SMKs and TMKs, but I can't use them for hunting in California. You were spot on, I dug out some boxes of these and these are 173 grain at 2550 on the box.
And that is something I really like about the LC Match, cause I don't think I've ever seen LC Match in 5.56, it's all crimped for military and I have far too much of that stuff, I don't even shoot 5.56 anymore, even though I have match barrels. About 15 years ago I had a Dillon, and would shoot about 400 rounds of 308 and 200 rounds of 5.56 for our club range day. And the Parks and Recreation closed down the pistol range, and the club went belly up...so go figure. Now the rifle range we used to use, Metcalf, is under attack from the environmentalists. An endangered butterfly!
And that is something I really like about the LC Match, cause I don't think I've ever seen LC Match in 5.56, it's all crimped for military and I have far too much of that stuff, I don't even shoot 5.56 anymore, even though I have match barrels. About 15 years ago I had a Dillon, and would shoot about 400 rounds of 308 and 200 rounds of 5.56 for our club range day. And the Parks and Recreation closed down the pistol range, and the club went belly up...so go figure. Now the rifle range we used to use, Metcalf, is under attack from the environmentalists. An endangered butterfly!
liber
Well-Known Member
Have you ever seen someone shooting an arrow from a compound bow at 80-100 yards? I'm intrigued with traditional recursive bows, but you need to get within 25-50 yards. There's an archery course on state park land not too far from me. It's kinda like golf holes that you hike around the hills shooting at a target for each station. I've never done it, but took a lesson with my son there. That kinda inspired me to go back to rifles. LOL
Lee Goodwin
Well-Known Member
One guy I know can and has taken antelope at 80 yards, after a long sneak. It is unbelievable what some can do.
