Is the .308 Win 7.62 X 51 still a Long Range Hunting Cartridge?

[Greatgrandad]

Once again, for your viewing pleasure.



Over my 20 years of viewing this forum, I have lost count of the numerous times the 308 discussion has come up.

I've taken a fair amount of game "up to" and even beyond 600 yards with a proper loaded 308.

 

[h_1ag]

Generally speaking 308 is only used by NATO countries. The rest of the world usually has 7.62x39. So running out of ammo and using your enemies ammo isn't a viable argument for the military not adopting the 6.5. That being said I'm not saying we should adopt it. I would however like to see the 5.56 go away and be replaced by a larger caliber.

If adversaries are engaging Americans from long(er) range they're likely using 7.62x54RUS, which is slightly superior to 7.62x51 and one of the main reasons we need to consider making sure our troops with long range capability actually have a better cartridge that's effective from further range than the enemy does. The military seems to understand that and it's a big reason the Army conducted trials and began converting many of the sniper support systems to the newer cartridge that triggers so many people in here.

 

[D Lee]

Sorry.......can't add any meaningful tech data here on the .308 Win. << A fan for decades.

Will say this................ 78 y/o, L-O-N-G on experience in the field with an embarrassing number of rifles / cartridges.....I now have the time to read. A true rifle Loonie...............minimum, I've read a half million threads on rifles, cartridges, bullets, loads etc, etc, etc. IMHO, too many threads / posts are filled with questionable speculations / keyboard opinions. Maybe fun to read but sorely missing, often contradicting real world, CONFIRMED data. A rare few stick to truths, offering FACTS very much worth learning / remembering / using.

This thread is one. A seriously good, useful read. Well done gentlemen....well done.

 

[Nomad8961]

If adversaries are engaging Americans from long(er) range they're likely using 7.62x54RUS, which is slightly superior to 7.62x51 and one of the main reasons we need to consider making sure our troops with long range capability actually have a better cartridge that's effective from further range than the enemy does. The military seems to understand that and it's a big reason the Army conducted trials and began converting many of the sniper support systems to the newer cartridge that triggers so man

If adversaries are engaging Americans from long(er) range they're likely using 7.62x54RUS, which is slightly superior to 7.62x51 and one of the main reasons we need to consider making sure our troops with long range capability actually have a better cartridge that's effective from further range than the enemy does. The military seems to understand that and it's a big reason the Army conducted trials and began converting many of the sniper support systems to the newer cartridge that triggers so many people in here.

How far we are being engaged had nothing to do with my post, I was simply saying none of our "enemies" carry 7.62x51. And if our troops run out of ammo using enemy ammo is not a viable option. That's all I was speaking to. I served my time in Afghanistan and was a designated marksmen. Not saying that means I know everything the army does etc, and not saying that qualifies me as better than anyone. But I very well understand enemy engagement at distances that a 223 and 308 are not the absolute best for the job.

 

[spladi]

I know that today's Military has dropped the 7.62 X 51/ .308 Win as a Sniper round. Yet it has been a proven performer for more than half a century. Every critter in CONUS has been dropped with the lowly 30-30, so is the .308 Win still viable?

I think so but others are more forgiving.

 

[Nomad8961]

Sorry.......can't add any meaningful tech data here on the .308 Win. << A fan for decades.

Will say this................ 78 y/o, L-O-N-G on experience in the field with an embarrassing number of rifles / cartridges.....I now have the time to read. A true rifle Loonie...............minimum, I've read a half million threads on rifles, cartridges, bullets, loads etc, etc, etc. IMHO, too many threads / posts are filled with questionable speculations / keyboard opinions. Maybe fun to read but sorely missing, often contradicting real world, CONFIRMED data. A rare few stick to truths, offering FACTS very much worth learning / remembering / using.

This thread is one. A seriously good, useful read. Well done gentlemen....well done.

I'm not sure "embarrassing" is something I'd use when talking about a large number of rifles. For some reason just one won't do, that turns into a couple and that turns into needing multiple safes and that turns into well, maybe we need a new house because the room I had all my stuff in won't fit anymore. I think it's probably a lot of guys issue on this forum! Glad your collection has been able to grow over the years.

 

[Nomad8961]

I would like to make it clear, I do like the 308, as a war fighting cartridge I believe it does and should always have its place and is very effective. I am still mad about leaving the 30-06 for a .22 cal rifle. My beef lies with the 5.56, maybe I should make another thread lol.

 

[Doom2]

OP are we hunting or sniping? very different with a different set of requirements. Not going to pretend to have military experience but I have plenty of scope time for deer, pigs, elk, nilgai and Aoudad beyond 600yards.

It is simple for ANY caliber, look at your impact velocity. Are you above 1800fps impact? Then yes you are still in an effective and repeatable bullet expansion distance.

Nothing wrong with the 308 but its effective expansion range is shorter then a magnum launching a heavier bullet faster. Just facts
In most 308win loads I would limit myself to 500yd and below based on impact velocity. Otherwise you are poking pencil holes, may be effective on people because we are fragile but not effective for quick kills on an wild animal like Elk!

for comparison: my custom 300wm launching 225eldM at 2975fps is effective by the same 1800fps impact limit out to 1120yds in Texas near sea level and even further in Colorado at higher altitude.

So to answer your queston: yes the 308Win is viable as a Longrange hunting caliber if you watch your impact velocity to limit your distance but that is the exact same for every caliber.

There I took your bait but stand firm on my answer
James

This is exactly the way the cartridge should be evaluated.

The 7.62x51 cartridge is a direct descendent of the 30-06 with a single goal in mind. That goal was to duplicate the 30-06 ballistics out to ~500 yds in a lighter, shorter cartridge more suitable for use in semi-automatic weapons. It filled that roll well. Was it as good at longer ranges as the 30-06? That answer is no. Is the 300WM as good of a long range cartridge as the 338 Lapua? Nope. It all boils down to picking the right cartridge for job.

I live in the South and the comment @FEENIX makes is how we looked at hunting when I was a kid. Everyone liked to say the 30-06 was the best deer rifle to have but here it was an absolute waste. The shotgun slug was very popular and lever action rifles were the most frequently used rifles in my opinion.

As for Carlos he was smart. You have to remember that his longest kill wasn't with a 30-06. He made that ~2500yd shot with a Ma-Duece (50 BMG)! Right tool for the right job!

 

[LRNut]

Once again, for your viewing pleasure.



Over my 20 years of viewing this forum, I have lost count of the numerous times the 308 discussion has come up.

I've taken a fair amount of game "up to" and even beyond 600 yards with a proper loaded 308.

From the video, it looks like it was hit in the neck - and at the end, clearly shows it was hit in the neck. Easy to play armchair QB, but the pine tree below the elk is bending pretty hard in the wind - 2 minutes? IMO, bad wind call and lucky it hit the neck.

I love my .308, but wind drift past 500 limits my shots.

 

[Paladin300]

Truth: 99% of tactical and hunting engagements happen inside 600 yards, most inside 200. If I could only own one gun, it would be a 308. It is the cartridge I recommend the most for newbies to learn on, most find they never need more. I have a friend who has guided for 30 years in Alaska, mainly bears. If you ask him what to bring he will tell you a 308 or 30-06. Most guides are not going to let you shoot beyond 400 yards. There is nothing worst than having to go in the bush after a wounded bear. The guides would rather have you shooting something you can handle than an Uber magnum. They also understand that there is no substitute for displacement and the 30 cal is their preferred minimum. There have been several surveys done around the would as to which calibers and cartridges are being used by most hunters. Four rise to the top every time and have killed more game than all others combined, 308, 30-06, 300 WM & 375 H&H. Additionally, the 308 is still the primary DMR for the US military and is the primary sniper rifle for all nato countries and police forces around the world. It is also still winning a lot of competitions around the world. The Creedmoor is a good round as are the PRCs but personally I think the 6.5x284 Norma is better than both but that is a debate for another day. The 308 is here to stay and probably will be for several more decades. Here are few of mine, some of my other rifles and a 600 yard group, 5 shot 100 yard group and 230 yard kill for you. Get ur done!

 

[SSG Graybush]

except for when he dumped 12/13 don't remember in little stream as they crossed it, with his M1-A and star light scope

it was a m21, a slightly modified m14, not a m1, I believe. The m21 front sight has been milled thinner to make 300 meter head shots, glass bedded, trigger worked, and there's a mod to the cycling system. And it's topped with a Art 1 or 2 scope, that can be removed. The Art 1 scope had a harder cam screw and stayed accurate longer. As far as I can remember. FT. Campbell/101st Abn Asslt still fielded the m21 in the late 80's. And had its own sniper school to use them taught by a Joseph White, and asst Mr Boswell. Both VN 5 grp guys, Mr White had 73 confirmed, coached Olympic team, Presidents 100 as well, and his favorite saying was "Dont worry your Air Assault, you can run 4 miles,,,, but cant shoot worth a ****". Mr. White was the best shot I ever saw. Watched him with a struggling students m21 with iron sights(Art 1 scope removed)at 600 meters shoot a shot, had it marked with a spotter and then put 6 more rds into that spotter with the last round shooting the spindle out and the spotter fell. A sub 6" group at 600 meters, with irons, student couldn't blame the rifle anymore. Unbelievable, but I witnessed it.
I relay this info because I cut my teeth with a 308, and worshipped it. But here's the rub.
Imo the 308 caliber needs a 300 wm case to push it effectively at a minimum, to be effective LR round.
A effective LR round needs a g1 bc of .6 and a case with enough powder to push it at 2900+ fps, by today's standards, imo.
The 308 win is a good intermediate range cartridge. You can shoot out past 800 with a 308 win but wind drift on .5ish g1 bc bullets make variable wind hits hard, and not certain. BC is everything in LR. The 308 win is not a efficient enough round with the modern equipment of today. Will it work yeah, but there's better, imo.
And for hunting one should use a ballistic app and see if a round has the minimum energy desired at whatever max range you want to hunt. Bullet manufacturers recommend (X) amount of speed for bullets to work, usually ~1800 fps minimum or about 1200 #'s. So look at the 308 win numbers, it's an intermediate range round. Imo the 7 rem mag is the smallest effective LR round with the energy to kill effectively as well.
edit- yes theres a few other cartridges in that light mag category like the 280 ai or 270 wsm with just enough energy, but you get my drift.

 

[fseaman.js]

Why did you bring up that 50 years ago, it's been 58 years since I was in VN, and had a sniper with me a lot, and his was a 308, but deadly.

The thread is about hunting not sniping.

I like the 308 better than most.

Hunting bullet advances did not have much pace during the VN war and are not connected to military as they are against the Geneva Convention.

 

[Hondo64d]

I know that today's Military has dropped the 7.62 X 51/ .308 Win as a Sniper round. Yet it has been a proven performer for more than half a century. Every critter in CONUS has been dropped with the lowly 30-30, so is the .308 Win still viable?

Still viable? Yes, within its limitations. From a terminal ballistics standpoint, I want a minimum of 1800fps impact velocity and prefer 2000. My .308 loads will provide 1800 fps impact velocity at about 680 yards. For wind call purposes, that same load is a 5mph load.

Are there better options now? Absolutely. My 6.5 Creedmoor load extends that minimum impact velocity range to 850 yards and is a 7mph load at that range. It does it without about 20% less recoil.

I love the .308 and still shoot one a lot, but there are better options available nowadays.

John

 

[VarmintBob]

308 Win has never been a long range cartridge.