Is shooting 1/2 moa groups at 1000yds posable for under $2000!

[Fiftydriver]

Just for a little perspective. Here are the first place Agg for the 2008 FCSA world championships:

Heavy Class
Agg.................9.7083"

Light Class
Agg.................9.2917"

Unlimited Class
Agg..................8.1875"

Hunter Class
Agg.................12.540"

Junior Shooters
Agg..................13.7188"

Rookie Shooters
Agg...................10.875"

These are the winners, the best of the best. There were only 18 screamer groups for all these classes of shooting. Of those only three of those groups broke 1/2 moa at 1000 yards and those three were barely under 1/2 moa.

Simply put again, if you can average 1/2 moa, you would win the FSCA championships even in the unlimited class.

 

[WildcatB]

I have 3 tikka's and all shoot 1/2 moa or better - two 270 wsm T3 lites and a 308 varminter. I haven't shot the 308 at a 1000 so I don't know what it will do at that distance but I get 2" groups at 600. The 270 wsm will shoot 5" groups at 1000. I paid $570 and $400 for the 270 wsms and $630 for the 308.

Paul

4xforfun, Kirby, Mike33

Seems like you don't believe on this but I'm not making it up. These are 3 shot groups in light consistent winds. I wouldn't call myself a good shot, but off of a bipod and rear bag, all I have to do is pull the trigger without flinching.

Jerry Theo's article Long Range Hunting Rifle On A Budget on this site states:

What level of accuracy do we need to be qualified as a long range rifle? I feel that consistent, dependable 1/2 MOA mechanical rifle accuracy is an excellent level of performance. Less is, of course, great but there are other considerations besides pure accuracy like functioning and feeding.​

This is the first article I read on this site. This article got me believing that long range shooting for me was possible. And that 1/2 MOA long range was possible. I was very impressed with myself when I did it, but didn't think it was a big deal for long range shooters in general since Jerry stated it was the minimum your gun should be able to do if you want to use it to shoot at animals at long range distances. Not only that, people like Kirby and other's said they where getting this (or better) kind of accuracy.

Even Kirby advertises his 7mm allen mag as being able to hold 1/2 moa out to 1000 yards.

7mm Allen Magnum
338 Lapua Magnum parent case, necked down to 7mm and fireformed to min body taper and shoulder angle.
140 gr.(3800 fps) up to 200 gr. ULD RBBT(.900 bc) 3200 to 3350 fps from 26" to 30" barrel lengths
Designed for long range big game hunting up to and including elk and moose. Has been used effectively on elk out to 1300 yards and has also proven one of the most ballsitically potent rounds in use today including the 277 Allen Magnum and the 338 Allen Magnum. Has proven capable of ½ moa accurate out to 1000 yards and 1 moa accurate out to 2800 yards in good conditions.
Appropriate powders: H-Retumbo, H-50BMG, H-870, H-US869, AA8700 and WC872

​

In fact if 1/2 MOA from a gun was not possible, shooting at deer sized animals at 1000 yards wouldn't be a good idea, once you add wind reading and shooter errors.

Maybe in a competition situation where you are shooting timed 10 shot groups, without being able to pass because of the wind, then 1/2 MOA isn't possible. Those aren't the condition when I shoot.

Again, I state that my guns can hold 1/2 MOA to 1000 yards. I'm used to getting "that's BS" response when I tell someone who has never shot long range, that I can hit a 10" gong at 1000 yards, UNTIL I show them. It's strange getting that kind of a response on this site, especially from people who got me believing this was possible in the first place.

Anyway If anyone still doesn't believe me is ever passing through Elko, NV I'll show you. Just email me a few days before and we'll arrange to go out and shoot. If these guns don't get the groups I'm saying,... then call "bull ****".



Paul​

 

[Fiftydriver]

Paul,

My reply was in no way directed toward you in any way. No do I have any reason not to fully believe your claims. No problem at all with what you have said your rifles will do.

I have not, did not and will not ever say that 1/2 moa accuracy is not consistantly possible with a relatively inexpensive rifle, if you can in fact call $2000 rifles inexpensive.

Especially for three shot groups. My point was simply that one can not expect to get this level of accuracy out of every rifle every day of the week. Hell, even in ideal conditions, us shooters simply have bad days at times and can not shoot to the ability of the rifle. That is simply a fact.

Again, my point was simply that one should not expect to spend X amount of $$ and be assured to get 1/2 moa accuracy all the time. It just does not work that way as I am sure you would agree.

As to my rifles, I test every rifle I build before I ship it. Every customer is told that the rifles are proven to have 1/2 moa accuracy potential before they will ship. That should be read carefully, the word potential is very important. IF all things are done correctly in good conditions, the rifles will shoot 1/2 moa for three shots.

If the ammo is match quality, if the velocity spread is consistant, if the rifle is sound and the shooter is as well, they will hold consistant 1/2 moa accuracy potential at 1000 yards. What does that mean, well, what I mean when I say that is that when you take a shot at a big game animal, that first shot will be within a 1/4 moa radius around the point of aim. That also requires the drop chart to be dead on as well. Alot goes into this 1/2 moa accuracy requirement.

That is why I say potential.

Anyway, I in no way wanted to offend you. I never had any problems with your results and to be honest was not even thinking of your post when I posted mine.

I just get asked all the time for a 1/2 moa 1000 yard rifle. There is alot involved in it other then just writting a check, that was and is my only point, not in any way that I was questioning your results.

 

[silvertip-co]

I'd think 5" at 1k is possible for <$2k with long barrel and right scope.

 

[Chopaka81]

What Kirby has said is real world 1000 yd results. It is "less than inspired" thinking to dispute what he has said. The point he made about the recent 1000 yd championship match and the screamer groups can not be ignored.

I will still keep my Tikka - thank you very much. And I will still use it within it's means - 600 yds, maybe 700 under perfect dead calm conditions.

 

[WildcatB]

I apologize. I misread your response. It seemed to me that you where saying that the best of the best rarely shoot 1/2 moa, which to me seemed to imply that there is no reason to believe the responses (including mine) saying it was possible.


Kirby, by the way, could you tell us more about the gun(s) you shoot at these competitions. I'm assuming that you made yours. Could you also post some pictures? Now I know where your username comes from.

Paul,

My reply was in no way directed toward you in any way. No do I have any reason not to fully believe your claims. No problem at all with what you have said
I have not, did not and will not ever say that 1/2 moa accuracy is not consistantly possible with a relatively inexpensive rifle, if you can in fact call $2000 rifles inexpensive.

Especially for three shot groups. My point was simply that one can not expect to get this level of accuracy out of every rifle every day of the week. Hell, even in ideal conditions, us shooters simply have bad days at times and can not shoot to the ability of the rifle. That is simply a fact.

Again, my point was simply that one should not expect to spend X amount of $$ and be assured to get 1/2 moa accuracy all the time. It just does not work that way as I am sure you would agree.

As to my rifles, I test every rifle I build before I ship it. Every customer is told that the rifles are proven to have 1/2 moa accuracy potential before they will ship. That should be read carefully, the word potential is very important. IF all things are done correctly in good conditions, the rifles will shoot 1/2 moa for three shots.

If the ammo is match quality, if the velocity spread is consistant, if the rifle is sound and the shooter is as well, they will hold consistant 1/2 moa accuracy potential at 1000 yards. What does that mean, well, what I mean when I say that is that when you take a shot at a big game animal, that first shot will be within a 1/4 moa radius around the point of aim. That also requires the drop chart to be dead on as well. Alot goes into this 1/2 moa accuracy requirement.

That is why I say potential.

Anyway, I in no way wanted to offend you. I never had any problems with your results and to be honest was not even thinking of your post when I posted mine.

I just get asked all the time for a 1/2 moa 1000 yard rifle. There is alot involved in it other then just writting a check, that was and is my only point, not in any way that I was questioning your results.

Paul

 

[mike33]

I do have some experience of shooting like i said shot in the 90's on ibs circuit. Could someone explain the 1/2 moa to me. How it works from 100- 1k? I was assuming 1/2" groups. Thanks,
Mike

 

[ss7mm]

1 moa is 1.047" at 100 yards
1 moa is 2x1.047" at 200 yards or 2.094" at 200 yards
1 moa is 5x1.047" at 500 yards or 5.235" at 500 yards
1 moa is 10x1.047" at 1000 yards or 10.470" at 1000 yards

1/2 moa at 500 yards is .5 x 5.235 or 2.6175"
1/2 moa at 1000 yards is .5 x 10.470 or 5.235"

 

[WildcatB]

Minute of Angle. MOA. Angles can be measured in Degree's Minutes and Seconds. There are 360 degrees in a circle. 60 Minutes in one degree. 60 seconds in one minute.

As you go farther away the distance subtended by the angle gets bigger.

1/2 MOA at 100 yards it's approx. 1/2", at 200 yards ~1", at 400 yards ~2", at 1000 yards it's ~5"

Here's a diagram showing 1 MOA out to 800 yards.

Paul

 

[mike33]

Thanks everyone, you can learn something every day just by asking.
mike

 

[4xforfun]

I'd think 5" at 1k is possible for <$2k with long barrel and right scope.

True.....if you barrel is 999 yards long!!!

 

[mike33]

That's funny!
mike

 

[cabelas90]

That was very well said Kirby. It put a lot of things in perspective. I think the question asked was probably a rhetorical one.....he knew without a doubt that it could be done. I think the key word in your response was "REPEATABLE". My shooting expertise has mostly been in the trapshooting world. If he had asked that question of me concerning a trapgun, IE "can i shoot 200 straight with a trapgun under 2K"....my response would have been , "of course, but can you do it consistently?" I think the human factor of these 2 disciplines would be close to the same, even given perfect conditions for both. AJ

thanks dogdinger i guess i should rephase my ? Is it repeatable and can it be done for under 2k!

 

[rdsii64]

Can you build or buy a gun that can hold a half minute at 1000 yards for under 2000. That depends on what you mean when you say hold a half minute. A three shot group maybe. But to be able to put an a string of 10 to 20 rounds all in a circle that is 5" in diameter you are going to need top notch gear. A gun that can do than will cost you more than 2000 dollars. Now at a minimum you are going to spend at least 1000 on a rifle scope that has the high enough quality glass and the mechanical repeatability to operate at that kind of range. Are there good scopes for lest than 1000 dollars. Not if you are going to shoot a consistent half minute at just over 6 tenths of a mile.