blacktail 8541
Well-Known Member
Cerrakote is done at 250 deg or less if you extend the time
Is it possible to damage or affect the accuracy of a barrel by black nitriding it?
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Cerrakote is done at 250 deg or less if you extend the time
I spin up the AR15 barrels (donated Shilen blanks) for our TX Juniors High Power Team, I send their barrels, along with some of my friends' barrels to the Nitriding operation in Chapell Hill, TX. To date, I must have sent close to 50 barrels for the treatment. The first few ones I tested for precision before and after, did not see any measurable change.
Longevity? I sort of coerced a good friend to re-barrel his service rifle before going to Camp Perry last summer. He had 10741 rounds through the Nitrided barrel, the last 600 yard match he shot was 198-10, he was burned for an 8 on a let down. Untreated button barrels we typically pull them out at 3000-3500 round range. I am shooting a few nitrided barrels right including a M40/M24 countour 300WM in my M24XX clone. So far I have not seen any dedgradation in precision after over 500 rounds shooting MK248 Mod 0 ammo. Will report some Teslong borescope pictures in a few days.
Edit: One of the nitrided junior barrel will be pulled out shortly. It has close to 6K rounds. The shooter earned LEG points on his last match and a mid 190 at 600 yards with it, but he reported having to chase the throat for his long line ammo. His dad verified the claim, so we issued him another barrel. I will get the old barrel to see how bad the erosion is.
Cleaning after the treatment, the best method we found was to remove all flash hiders, and barrel extensions (yes, the BEs will loosen up by the treatment) and leave the barrels underwater in an old large cooler for a couple days. You can see the brownish Nitriding residue ooze out from the bores. The residue is water soluble.
Longevity? I sort of coerced a good friend to re-barrel his service rifle before going to Camp Perry last summer. He had 10741 rounds through the Nitrided barrel, the last 600 yard match he shot was 198-10, he was burned for an 8 on a let down. Untreated button barrels we typically pull them out at 3000-3500 round range. I am shooting a few nitrided barrels right including a M40/M24 countour 300WM in my M24XX clone. So far I have not seen any dedgradation in precision after over 500 rounds shooting MK248 Mod 0 ammo. Will report some Teslong borescope pictures in a few days.
Edit: One of the nitrided junior barrel will be pulled out shortly. It has close to 6K rounds. The shooter earned LEG points on his last match and a mid 190 at 600 yards with it, but he reported having to chase the throat for his long line ammo. His dad verified the claim, so we issued him another barrel. I will get the old barrel to see how bad the erosion is.
Cleaning after the treatment, the best method we found was to remove all flash hiders, and barrel extensions (yes, the BEs will loosen up by the treatment) and leave the barrels underwater in an old large cooler for a couple days. You can see the brownish Nitriding residue ooze out from the bores. The residue is water soluble.
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Sgt. grizz
Well-Known Member
Besides cleaning your barrel after it is done I would want to Cryogenic the barrel when you are done to realign the molecules in the metal. The Gunsmith I learned from tested cryogenics on barrels knives and tooling it improved all of them, the barrels shoot better the knive held a edge longer and his lathe tooling lasted longer.
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
HOT, soapy water (I use dish soap) with the proper bronze bore brush does a fantastic job. Just like cleaning a black powder barrel. Barrels need to be perfectly clean and broke-in. Break-in of a custom hand lapped barrel shouldn't take much. Just a few rounds to remove the 'fluff' (at the throat) from chambering.
lowdowndirtybugger
Well-Known Member
I nitride all my precision barrels.
In short yes you can mess one up if
A: ANY copper at all in the barrel. Even micro amounts can cause small pits that wear over time
B: you send it somewhere that either doesn't know what they are doing and just throws them into a big batch.
On the other end nitride will more than double and in many cases triple your barrel life because the throat will resist wear from heat and friction. It slows the degradation process that causes fire cracking in the throat it also slows land erosion.
Contrary to popular belief you can break in a barrel after you nitride it. It just takes longer... Alot longer
Do not fire a barrel before sending it in as coppering is one of the biggest problems
Send it to Controlled Thermal Technologies in Phoenix Arizona
It will cost around 80$
They have done a dozen barrels for me and every single one came back shooting sub 1/4 minute.
I have done this on .243 win (currently at 3200 rounds with only slight rounding to the edge of the lands and still at the same seating depth)
6.5 saum 2500 rounds with no visible or measurable wear
300 win mag 1600 rounds again no wear
Others to early to really comment are 6.5 Creed (2), .223 rem, 308 win (2), 270 wsm, 7 rem mag, 6 br, 22br
Do it right and you will be pleased but your barrel manufacturer will have a cow as they won't have as many resales......they just don't see it right. They get business from you being able to afford more builds because you're not replacing barrels every time you turn around.
In short yes you can mess one up if
A: ANY copper at all in the barrel. Even micro amounts can cause small pits that wear over time
B: you send it somewhere that either doesn't know what they are doing and just throws them into a big batch.
On the other end nitride will more than double and in many cases triple your barrel life because the throat will resist wear from heat and friction. It slows the degradation process that causes fire cracking in the throat it also slows land erosion.
Contrary to popular belief you can break in a barrel after you nitride it. It just takes longer... Alot longer
Do not fire a barrel before sending it in as coppering is one of the biggest problems
Send it to Controlled Thermal Technologies in Phoenix Arizona
It will cost around 80$
They have done a dozen barrels for me and every single one came back shooting sub 1/4 minute.
I have done this on .243 win (currently at 3200 rounds with only slight rounding to the edge of the lands and still at the same seating depth)
6.5 saum 2500 rounds with no visible or measurable wear
300 win mag 1600 rounds again no wear
Others to early to really comment are 6.5 Creed (2), .223 rem, 308 win (2), 270 wsm, 7 rem mag, 6 br, 22br
Do it right and you will be pleased but your barrel manufacturer will have a cow as they won't have as many resales......they just don't see it right. They get business from you being able to afford more builds because you're not replacing barrels every time you turn around.
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Is this similar to the pyramid effect where just being in a pyramid makes your knife sharp? Egyptians were big on pyramids.
Sgt. grizz
Well-Known Member
Yes it's the same lol. what they do is freeze the metal then bring it up to a very hot temp which releases the molecules in the metal and realigning them after work stress has taken place.
Svashtar
Well-Known Member
FWIW, over the years I used Robar for their super tough Roguard finish twice, which is a matte black, and was very impressed. It has (had, see below) an insane salt spray rating, something like 30-days continuous direct spray exposure before any reaction at all, IIRC), but Lee Love at UniqueTek told me recently that Robar closed its doors a few months ago after many years which is a shame.
For Cerakote I've used OC Custom Coatings in Anaheim with good results, in matte black, a glossier black, and OD green for a stock.
They've also applied both grey and black Micro Slick to a couple of bolts for me. I'm not an expert, but Micro Slick is even thinner than Cerakote as far as I know, and really does what it says. Bolts wipe clean with a paper towel, and ride in the bolt carrier or receiver like glass on glass.
The only thing I didn't like about CK on one Savage rifle, is that because there was some play when rolling the bolt handle to the left when opening the bolt, and if you opened the bolt forcefully, the flat part of the underside of the bolt handle contacted the Cerakoted receiver and marked it up slightly. But that was a Savage M11 Scout off the shelf rifle. With a higher end or precision rifle I don't know that it would happen as you probably wouldn't have the same amount of play.
Check out OC at: http://www.occustomcoating.com/
Check out their gallery for a lot of good ideas (a fast internet connection helps!).
It's been a year since I last used them but the guy I dealt with at the time was Matt, who was super helpful.
For Cerakote I've used OC Custom Coatings in Anaheim with good results, in matte black, a glossier black, and OD green for a stock.
They've also applied both grey and black Micro Slick to a couple of bolts for me. I'm not an expert, but Micro Slick is even thinner than Cerakote as far as I know, and really does what it says. Bolts wipe clean with a paper towel, and ride in the bolt carrier or receiver like glass on glass.
The only thing I didn't like about CK on one Savage rifle, is that because there was some play when rolling the bolt handle to the left when opening the bolt, and if you opened the bolt forcefully, the flat part of the underside of the bolt handle contacted the Cerakoted receiver and marked it up slightly. But that was a Savage M11 Scout off the shelf rifle. With a higher end or precision rifle I don't know that it would happen as you probably wouldn't have the same amount of play.
Check out OC at: http://www.occustomcoating.com/
Check out their gallery for a lot of good ideas (a fast internet connection helps!).
It's been a year since I last used them but the guy I dealt with at the time was Matt, who was super helpful.
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65WSM
Well-Known Member
I spoke to a Savage designer at the Sportsman's Show in their booth. He was primarily responsible for the Savage AR- style and chassis rifles. He said they had problems until Savage discovered Thermal Technologies in Phoenix. I have had three Pelican cases of Bartlein and Brux barrels treated by them.
Danny Rosetta
Vice President, Operations
Controlled Thermal Technology
and
General Manager
TS-West
2617 West Cypress Street
Phoenix, AZ 85009-2622
Phone: 602-272-3714
Fax: 602-272-2157
E-Mail: [email protected]
Web: http://www.cttaz.com
I had a Fedex driver drop a nitrocarburized barrel out of a cardboard box right in front of me. It bounced off the concrete waist high and hit the pavement a couple of more times down the sloping driveway. After I brushed the dust off the edge of the threads on ends, you couldn't tell. Left dents in the concrete however.
Danny Rosetta
Vice President, Operations
Controlled Thermal Technology
and
General Manager
TS-West
2617 West Cypress Street
Phoenix, AZ 85009-2622
Phone: 602-272-3714
Fax: 602-272-2157
E-Mail: [email protected]
Web: http://www.cttaz.com
I had a Fedex driver drop a nitrocarburized barrel out of a cardboard box right in front of me. It bounced off the concrete waist high and hit the pavement a couple of more times down the sloping driveway. After I brushed the dust off the edge of the threads on ends, you couldn't tell. Left dents in the concrete however.
I'm not an expert on barrel nitriding but I worked for years building machine tools. Most tools were nitrided. One of my jobs was to straighten the tools after nitriding.
Nitriding brings the chromium in the steel to the surface layer about .007 to .010"deep. It's much harder so it's easy to understand why barrels would last longer.
Cerrakote is like thin paint not affecting the steel.
If the steel has a lot of stress in it before nitriding sometimes it would distort or if it is loaded in the nitrider with heavy parts on top things sometimes distorted. I have no idea how much distortion there would have to be to affect accuracy.
Nitriding brings the chromium in the steel to the surface layer about .007 to .010"deep. It's much harder so it's easy to understand why barrels would last longer.
Cerrakote is like thin paint not affecting the steel.
If the steel has a lot of stress in it before nitriding sometimes it would distort or if it is loaded in the nitrider with heavy parts on top things sometimes distorted. I have no idea how much distortion there would have to be to affect accuracy.
Svashtar
Well-Known Member
Sorry should have mentioned in my last post. They can do the barreled action as one piece, but of course will want any sub assemblies you include taken apart for coating which they'll do for you if you like. I'm paranoid so took everything down to individual parts and labeled everything, then matched it to a work order sheet they have you fill out with each job. That included the muzzle brake and washer, sight rail and screws, back up receiver sight, etc.
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sable tireur
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2010
- Messages
- 3,890
One of the drawbacks to general discussions of technical information is the amount of BS which is presented and allowed to permeate the correct information. Directly from the NIC website as an example:
https://www.cerakote.com/resources/...LITE_H-Series_Training_Manual_WEB_1-17-17.pdf
The answers to most of the general questions about the various Cerakote products are found on their website:
https://www.cerakote.com/resource/downloads/
And you can vary the degree of glossy or matte appearance of the black Cerakote by adding more or less catalyst.
Be sure to spend your time reading the NIC website rather than listening to some of the internet experts.
https://www.cerakote.com/resources/...LITE_H-Series_Training_Manual_WEB_1-17-17.pdf
The answers to most of the general questions about the various Cerakote products are found on their website:
https://www.cerakote.com/resource/downloads/
And you can vary the degree of glossy or matte appearance of the black Cerakote by adding more or less catalyst.
Be sure to spend your time reading the NIC website rather than listening to some of the internet experts.
