Is faster better?

[FEENIX]

I've killed stacks of deer, pigs, and one elk with a mere ~65 foot-pounds of kinetic energy at the "muzzle" of my bow so there's more to the KE and mode of delivery than just numbers or this wouldn't be possible. Virtually all were complete pass thru with a mechanical broad head.
I've had guides rattle off the "you need 1,500 ft/lbs to kill an elk" like they just got back from Bass Pro. A typical .44 mag has about 950 ft/lb at the muzzle so it shouldn't be able to kill an elk at point blank range much less a bear according to the numbers. There's more to consider than a hard number threshold and plenty of room for discussion and opinions, and still lots to learn.
https://www.realtree.com/kinetic-energy-and-momentum-calculatorView attachment 281599

You provided yet another guide. There are KE guides/recommendations for rifles, pistols, archery, etc., for X games at X distance ... all are guides. What one does with them is entirely up to the end-user.

The one thing your link iterated is to find the sweet spot between kinetic energy and momentum. There is always a compromise with one of the factors involved, just as I noted in #5, the best compromise between velocity and accuracy.

I agree with your statement, "There's more to consider than a hard number threshold and plenty of room for discussion and opinions, and still lots to learn. I am a continuous learner and do not have problems learning new things.

 

[Muddyboots]

I will only post one comment to this thread. The faster I pushed Hammers, the more accurate they became. If you have not shot them, then a paper chase is worthless. Its like explaining a smell, if you haven't experienced it, it is just words on a paper.

 

[FEENIX]

No empirical evidence here, but based on my opinion and experience. So, I do appreciate the opposite opinions and like FEENIX this could go on forever. I am out. Lol.

I love this type of honest response.

 

[xsn10s]

I'd like to see some people's come ups on the loads.

 

[Korhil78]

Different bullets for different folks style and type of hunting is all it boils down too and putting the bullet in the vitals. Hammer, berger, Hornady, Sierra and nosler bullets all kill animals if you put the bullet where it needs to be.

I use a 195 Gr Berger in my 7 MAX going 2940 FPS and it has killed everything I have shot with it. I have a New Mexico bull elk tag in a highly desired area this year and will use that bullet with a lot of confidence. My son will also use it for his cow elk hunt.

I just ordered 100 of the 169 Gr hammer hunters to build a load during this coming winter and would have no problem using it on an elk hunt either.

Every bullet has a limitation of some sort. It's a give and take. Berger bullets have a really high BC but are very fragile so I use them as a bullet that needs a behind the shoulder shot and not come into contact with any bone.

Hammer bullets are are a solid copper with a lower BC comparatively speaking to the other lead core bullets but you can take shoulder shots with them and be just fine and also step down in weight class and push them fast.

I am not a bullet hater and keep my mind open to everyone's experience both good and bad. But the bottom line is that pretty much every bullet will do its job if you put it in the vitals and know that bullets limitation. It's just a preference on how you hunt and the terrain you hunt in

 

[Hard rock]

Different bullets for different folks style and type of hunting is all it boils down too and putting the bullet in the vitals. Hammer, berger, Hornady, Sierra and nosler bullets all kill animals if you put the bullet where it needs to be.

I use a 195 Gr Berger in my 7 MAX going 2940 FPS and it has killed everything I have shot with it. I have a New Mexico bull elk tag in a highly desired area this year and will use that bullet with a lot of confidence. My son will also use it for his cow elk hunt.

I just ordered 100 of the 169 Gr hammer hunters to build a load during this coming winter and would have no problem using it on an elk hunt either.

Every bullet has a limitation of some sort. It's a give and take. Berger bullets have a really high BC but are very fragile so I use them as a bullet that needs a behind the shoulder shot and not come into contact with any bone.

Hammer bullets are are a solid copper with a lower BC comparatively speaking to the other lead core bullets but you can take shoulder shots with them and be just fine and also step down in weight class and push them fast.

I am not a bullet hater and keep my mind open to everyone's experience both good and bad. But the bottom line is that pretty much every bullet will do its job if you put it in the vitals and know that bullets limitation. It's just a preference on how you hunt and the terrain you hunt in

Hammers have no terminal performance limitations

 

[FEENIX]

Hammers have no terminal performance limitations

Like @korhill, I, too, am open, but it's an unwarranted claim like this is where I have an issue. I respect everyone's opinions and experiences and was fine until now; a bold claim (Hammers have no terminal performance limitations) like this needs to be substantiated by empirical evidence. I do not think Steve and Brian are making any such claim, except for this pending statement, "All of our bullets are, or will be, tested by Bryan Litz of Applied Ballistics. Our bc values will be listed as Calc, Est, or Litz." I understand a forgiving bullet design, sorry but everything has a limitation.

Out of respect to Steve and Brian, as @Rick Richard would say ...

No empirical evidence here, but based on my opinion and experience. So, I do appreciate the opposite opinions and like FEENIX this could go on forever. I am out. Lol.

My statement above DOES NOT mean I am NOT open to trying Hammer Bullets. As previously noted, end-users need to synthesize the information being presented. Cheers!

 

[ButterBean]

I agree Everything has its limitations but the field tests in Australia have had some spectacular results. scrub bull that was taken with the 124 HH out of a 300 RUM it went through the horn and through the neck severing the spine leaving a 1 inch wide wound path, the bullet was recovered on the far side of the neck in the hide with 2 petals in tow, the hide on this particular bull was an inch and a half thick, feral donkeys were also tested with th 124, Hard quartering shot through the front shoulder knuckle and sill penetrated four feet through the animal, there are tons of great Bullets and use what you prefer as there is no right or wrong, it's personal preference and that's all it is, The Hammers IMO are a complete game changer and this is what I choose to use, once again it's personal preference but for all the nay sayers I have field proven results, once again every Bullet has its limitations and should be used in that context, the 124 out of the Rum is a 600 yard round and we loaded it knowing that from the start

 

[FEENIX]

I agree Everything has its limitations

Bullet has its limitations and should be used in that context,

This is all I need.

 

[Korhil78]

Hammers have no terminal performance limitations

I'm gonna leave this one alone because it has already been address and don't want to derail the thread.

No nay sayer here. I think the hammer bullets are a great bullet. And pushing a bullet super fast does have its advantages but you either have to have a ton of powder behind a bullet or go way down in weight class of the bullet to do it. The latter definitely has limitations and as Butterbean said, they already knew those limitations because they are smart and tested it. But 600 yards for a 124 Gr bullet is nothing to sneeze at haha.

 

[yobuck]

The stash of bullets i have are so old they have a crank handle sticking out front of them.
But they still work at least for what i use them for, so as long as im still here ill keep using them.
The Cutting Edge facility is only about an hour from our camp, and i did visit there and had the tour by the owner who is a long range hunter.
Id think that solid copper is solid copper, but i could be wrong.
BC is another thing, but im not about to chamber a barrel just so i can shoot a certain bullet.

 

[ButterBean]

This is all I need.

I limit myself to 600 yards unless conditions are ideal to me so the 124HH in 30 cal and the 90AH in 25 fit me perfectly, FWIW I still use the 178 ELDX for anything past that as they are a fine bullet and work great and I've got a bunch of them, when I run I'll switch to Hammers

 

[FEENIX]

I limit myself to 600 yards unless conditions are ideal to me so the 124HH in 30 cal and the 90AH in 25 fit me perfectly, FWIW I still use the 178 ELDX for anything past that as they are a fine bullet and work great and I've got a bunch of them, when I run I'll switch to Hammers

As I said, I am fine with end-users that recognize the limitations of their bullets for their intended purposes.

 

[Korhil78]

I limit myself to 600 yards unless conditions are ideal to me so the 124HH in 30 cal and the 90AH in 25 fit me perfectly, FWIW I still use the 178 ELDX for anything past that as they are a fine bullet and work great and I've got a bunch of them, when I run I'll switch to Hammers

I may switch over as well with the 169 Gr HH if I like it. If I can get it going between 3100-3200 fps.