Is a 270 WSM an adequate elk round?

For what is worth, I've had amazing luck with hammer hunter 180 gr mono's in 30 cal. On elk. Over the years I've migrated away from the good old partition. This is mostly due to me moving from a thick forest (225 yard max shot distance, most under 100 yards) to very open country. I still run the partition in my 30-06 but I don't hunt with it much at all any more. I had a learning period about 10 years ago with my 6.5 SAUM trying many different bullets. For me, with my experiences, the ELD-X and the hammer hunters were the only bullets i found similar wound signatures to what i was used to with the partition. Now days I hunt smaller game like deer and antelope with the 6.5 SAUM and 143 ELD-X and elk and black bear with the 180 hammer hunter, and moose with the 300gr burger .338 (but I hate that bullet, it throws lead all over the meat. I need to find a new bullet for the 338). I do not have experience with the 1:3 class twist rate of the 8.6 BO, but i do like the idea of it. I will probably never build one since where I live now is such open country though.
For sure, the mono bullets work well. It's tough for anything to live when a supersonic piece of metal is driven through its lungs!

The partitions have always been great, because you get the penetration and expansion of the base paired with the added wound cavity caused by the front of the bullet upsetting and breaking off.

I have yet to use the ELD bullets but they look to be one of the best choices today. I would absolutely choose them over a mono for any situation that doesn't legally require me to use a lead-free bullet.

And yes, 300 grains of 338 is a lot of lead to displace through a body. The 8.6 is an intriguing cartridge, and if going with a mono, the bigger diameter the better. Probably not the best round for open country, but would certainly solve the matter of excess metal in a moose, and a big subsonic with a silencer would be sweet in heavy timber. I just personally don't see 338 as necessary for a moose, and refuse to pay $4-$5 a round for my general purpose rifle when when the factory ammo I shoot is $1.50.
 
For sure, the mono bullets work well. It's tough for anything to live when a supersonic piece of metal is driven through its lungs!

The partitions have always been great, because you get the penetration and expansion of the base paired with the added wound cavity caused by the front of the bullet upsetting and breaking off.

I have yet to use the ELD bullets but they look to be one of the best choices today. I would absolutely choose them over a mono for any situation that doesn't legally require me to use a lead-free bullet.

And yes, 300 grains of 338 is a lot of lead to displace through a body. The 8.6 is an intriguing cartridge, and if going with a mono, the bigger diameter the better. Probably not the best round for open country, but would certainly solve the matter of excess metal in a moose, and a big subsonic with a silencer would be sweet in heavy timber. I just personally don't see 338 as necessary for a moose, and refuse to pay $4-$5 a round for my general purpose rifle when when the factory ammo I shoot is $1.50.
Oh. 338 is not needed for moose! My father in law has taken many with a bow or good old 30-06. I just had an itch for 338 so I had Lane Precision Rifles build one. I probably won't even go for another moose for a couple more years. By then I'll probably find a better bullet. By better I simply mean one I prefer. As insanely big and strong as a moose is, they go down surprisingly easy with a shot in the boiler room.
 
You guys make my head hurt.
Just get close and shoot the **** thing. It's like watching fog horn leg horn talk to egg head on Saturday morning cartoons.
 
For what is worth, I've had amazing luck with hammer hunter 180 gr mono's in 30 cal. On elk. Over the years I've migrated away from the good old partition. This is mostly due to me moving from a thick forest (225 yard max shot distance, most under 100 yards) to very open country. I still run the partition in my 30-06 but I don't hunt with it much at all any more. I had a learning period about 10 years ago with my 6.5 SAUM trying many different bullets. For me, with my experiences, the ELD-X and the hammer hunters were the only bullets i found similar wound signatures to what i was used to with the partition. Now days I hunt smaller game like deer and antelope with the 6.5 SAUM and 143 ELD-X and elk and black bear with the 180 hammer hunter, and moose with the 300gr burger .338 (but I hate that bullet, it throws lead all over the meat. I need to find a new bullet for the 338). I do not have experience with the 1:3 class twist rate of the 8.6 BO, but i do like the idea of it. I will probably never build one since where I live now is such open country though.
I've had very good luck with the Barnes TTSX in .338
 
I need to find a new bullet for the 338)

If you're somewhat satisfied with monos in other calibers……you might consider a mono in your .338.

My wife has used Barnes 225 TTSX's for many years (back into the late '90's) with great success on everything from antelope, elk, bear, and moose. They simply work! memtb
 
If you're somewhat satisfied with monos in other calibers……you might consider a mono in your .338.

My wife has used Barnes 225 TTSX's for many years (back into the late '90's) with great success on everything from antelope, elk, bear, and moose. They simply work! memtb
This would be a whole new thread. 😃 i mean I'm sure there's already one, but i haven't delve into it yet.
 
This is strictly my opinion and it's completely based on my experiences. Also I am not a great elk hunter. I've taken some but I'm not one of those guys that takes one or more every year.
My uncle and grandfather are the types that have taken one each every year for 30-ish years.
I have helped my grandfather clean and butcher 3 elk with 270 bullets in them. 2 had completely healed over and one looked several days old. I'm not a fan of 270 for elk. I have also taken elk with a 6.5 SAUM. It got the job done, but the one time was enough to show to me that the 6.5 SAUM (or 6.5 PRC) just doesn't have enough mass or expansion to make up for any slight error. Sure, a million elk have been killed with 6.5 CM, but I suspect there's a lot of elk running around with 6.5mm pieces of lead in them too. Even this last week at the local range i was talking to a guy that swears he had a perfect 500 yard shot with his 6.5 PRC on an elk but missed. He didn't see where he missed. When I said "maybe you hit it and just didn't put it down". He was 100%convinced it should fall in it's tracks. I've seen a perfect lung shot elk (6.5mm) travel a mile before falling down. I've put down some elk with the 30-06. I would take a 30-06 or anything more powerful in .308" or bigger for elk. I've never had an elk go more than 10 yards with a .308" bullet and a lung shot.
I've seen well over 100 Bulls killed with everything from .243/6mms up to big .338s. If they don't go down quick, its the shooter. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME


Here's a big bull at 660, with a 6.5...140 VLD




And a big bull at 400 with a 25-06...115VLD







98g6pp.jpg
 
No argument. I prefer the 30 cal to make up for any minor error. And it's strictly my opinion. The OP was asking about 270 wsm and imo, I prefer a bit larger.
 
I've seen well over 100 Bulls killed with everything from .243/6mms up to big .338s. If they don't go down quick, its the shooter. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME


Here's a big bull at 660, with a 6.5...140 VLD




And a big bull at 400 with a 25-06...115VLD







View attachment 612925


If I were a paying client……I want a cartridge with a bullet, that will full length that bull……at that distance, from any angle!

Hell…..that's what I want as a self-guided hunter! I don't have enough opportunities to pass on less than perfect shot presentation! That's just me! 😉 memtb
 
If I were a paying client……I want a cartridge with a bullet, that will full length that bull……at that distance, from any angle!

Hell…..that's what I want as a self-guided hunter! I don't have enough opportunities to pass on less than perfect shot presentation! That's just me! 😉 memtb
Which bull are you referring to? The one that dropped? Or the one that died in like 15 seconds? There is no need to "full length" a Bull, unless you are shooting at the wrong end.
 
I understand kinetic energy, it's kinda baked into my career, but it gives almost no prediction to results on target. KE doesn't describe how the bullet transfers its energy to living tissue, only what it's doing at any given point in the direction vector of its trajectory.

A magnum caliber with a mono bullet will have far more kinetic energy than a moderate caliber with any bullet. But the level of damage to vital organs is often inverted if you pick a good expanding/fragmenting bullet for said smaller caliber. That's because what the bullet does once it enters tissue matters far more for rapid lethality.

This is why Q and Kevin B, who have designed cartridges around monolithic bullets, advocate for spinning them as fast as possible without the bullets coming apart. Because the standard wound channel of a mono bullet is pretty abysmal, whereas if you ramp up the RPMs it has an immediate and drastic effect on permanent wound cavity. You're displacing far more tissue with a centrifugal energy that is off-axis to the direction of travel.

The same thing happens with a fragmenting or tumbling round, where massive tissue damage is caused by "pieces" of the bullet breaking off and continuing on their own skewed trajectory through tissue. You also gain the advantage of transferring far more of that beloved KE to the animal, where a much "tougher" bullet, or a solid, will retain (i.e. waste) that energy upon exiting the animal, therefore causing far less trauma.

Most hunters would be better served with a smaller caliber and better bullet vs maximizing their KE with a magnum unnecessarily. Because you're right, you can shoot a bullet that does far more tissue damage than desirable when you get into magnums. So imagine taking a bullet design that is maximized for lethality and putting it into a smaller cartridge that is easier to shoot, but has far less KE on paper.

I agree that what we want with expanding bullets is maximum energy transfer. The bullet must decelerate as much as possible between entry and exit, preferably in the space from after it has penetrated skin and exterior muscle/bone to within the vitals to when it leaves the vitals and hits that exterior bone/muscle/skin layer. That should cause the most tissue damage, quickly. Too expansive or non-expansive is not good. We want the Goldilocks bullet... just right. That's where bullet selection, influenced by the game, the cartridge, and the anticipated ranges comes in.

Fast barrel twist/spin rate leads to bullet tumbling and thus more rapid energy transfer with long for caliber bullets due to the larger surface area presented by a tumbling bullet... these bullets aren't over-stabilized but merely adequately stabilized, and have the center of balance behind the midpoint of the bullet... the only reason they fly point forward is because of spin.

Given two bullets with identical terminal performance, the one with higher kinetic energy at impact will do more damage. Will it kill more quickly? Yes, but absent a significant difference in energy there won't be a significant difference in speed of killing. Of course this depends on the critter; the difference in game response between a hit by a .243 through the lungs and the same hit with a .338 Win Mag is generally an observable difference in that the game drops quicker, doesn't run as far or at all, with the more powerful cartridge. My admitted guess as to the cause is because while both provide sufficient internal trauma/wounding, more kinetic energy causes more disruption to the CNS... akin to a moderate punch to the gut versus a hard one... and the effect is more pronounced on deer than on elk.

This is a fascinating conversation for me. I'd love to see someone... ammo manufacturer, bullet company... undertake a study on this. If it were my study I'd pick four distinct calibers, say .243, 6.5/.264 or .270, .308, and .338, and try to find bullets for each caliber that would perform similarly in terms of percentage of energy transfer (not in terms of performance) at the same velocity. I'd do this by testing them at a common velocity on maybe steers or axis deer, to get a baseline/benchmark. Then, I'd load sets of ammo (all calibers at the same velocity) for different velocities representing expected velocities from 50 to 400 yards for standard and magnum velocity cartridges, at 50 yard increments (so maybe 9 to 10 overall 'sets'). I would want to shoot 10 animals per cartridge at each range, in the same exact spot (broadside, mid-chest, 4" behind the front leg, to go side-to-side through the front chest of the animal). I'd like to rig up some way of catching the bullet on the other side and maybe placing a radar chronograph to get exit velocities, and chronograph every load from the bench/rifle. Of course, since these are domestic animals they could be staked or roped and the rifle would be in a rest to ensure maximum consistency of shots. Each animal would be shot once and then autopsied... any animal that didn't die within X seconds would be euthanized. The time from impact to collapse and impact to death would be recorded along with hit attributes (was bone struck, damage volume to organs, what organs were struck, etc.). That would require 3,200 rounds fired at a minimum. Likely impossible today, at least in the US. Maybe in South America or Africa though, and likely cost-prohibitive for most companies (likely well over $200K). The data collected would be sufficient to let us draw some firm conclusions and to establish a baseline database for further testing.

What would we learn? Minimum energy thresholds (for that size of critter) for effective one-shot kills, energy thresholds for rapid/instant kills without CNS hits (if there is one), the difference in lethality for different calibers at different velocities/energies, should there be a minimum caliber, bullet weight, and velocity for ethical big game hunting, maximum effective range for quick lethality for specific calibers/velocities... and that database could be grown over time with different bullet types, different shot placement scenarios, etc.

Now I'll argue against myself by saying that we likely know enough to make informed decisions without having to know everything. We know that a .243 on up with an expanding bullet designed for big game will, on a broadside shot through the chest cavity and hitting the lungs, kill a deer out to 400 yards and an elk out to 300 yards quickly enough to qualify as a valid/ethical choice, that stepping this up to .264-.284 calibers gives us at least an extra 150 yards, going up to .308 gives us 100 more yards, and going up to .338 gives us another 100 yards. The effective ranges for each caliber are longer, but the ranges above are certain and sufficient to make valid decisions on hunting calibers. So, maybe, we don't need to run a large testing program.
 
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Which bull are you referring to? The one that dropped? Or the one that died in like 15 seconds? There is no need to "full length" a Bull, unless you are shooting at the wrong end.

Sometimes the "wrong end" is the "only end" that you are offered in a hunting season.

Properly placed, little edible meat is lost unless a ham is hit. Still…..75% of an elk is much better than 0% of an elk! Again, the right bullet properly placed, will kill an elk (or any other big gam animal) very quickly!

Or……loosing an entire elk because a long range, shot with a marginal (under less than ideal circumstances) cartridge is used!

Just because it "can" be done …….doesn't mean it "should" be done! 😉 memtb
 
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I've seen well over 100 Bulls killed with everything from .243/6mms up to big .338s. If they don't go down quick, its the shooter. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME

Here's a big bull at 660, with a 6.5...140 VLD




And a big bull at 400 with a 25-06...115VLD


The 6.5 elk looked like a neck/spinal shot... it dropped instantly. IMO a riskier shot (perhaps a slight miss to the left from wind?) than a lung shot, but it certainly worked. Hard to make definitive judgments about the suitability of the caliber from this one example... the same results would have happened with any deer-capable bullet from a centerfire rifle.

The 25-06 shot was a front quartering shot that clearly penetrated... you can see the exit wound when the elk turns to the right, and the blood sign gets larger quickly. That elk bled out from a shot that likely took out both lungs and exited just behind the diaphragm on the opposite side. The bullet performed suitably, and this is IMO a positive example.

With both of these, what would have happened if the bullet had been 6" to the right? IMO a dead elk but in the first case maybe 5 to 10 seconds on its feet, but for the second case a gut shot elk that would have run quite a ways.

Is there a margin-of-error factor that makes choosing a larger caliber with more energy a better choice? Not for when everything goes right, but when something goes wrong?
 
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