"Inherently more accurate"

[Opa-lopa]

I've been a ballistics engineer for 40 years, taught classes all over the US & offshore. There is NO "inherent accuracy". That's code for: "it works but we're either too lazy or too stupid to figure out why." Cartridges that shoot small groups do so because of specific features that allow that to happen over a wide range of conditions; it's called product robustness and it's no accident.

 

[Deleted member 107796]

Yes, I think only more inherently accurate to those that can't deal with recoil, but the new recoil pads make it a non issue, imo.

 

[Philward]

OMG, 7 pages already and thread was started yesterday?

I don't think "Inherent accuracy" is about the cartridge, but more about the bullet. Regardless of the cartridge size or shape, it just holds the powder charge that pushes the bullet out the barrel. I'm assuming by "accuracy" we are talking wind drift, how much it is affected by cross wind and drag. The bullet doesn't give a hoot what the cartridge shape is once it leaves the neck. "Inherent accuracy" has the aura of any sloppy crap built rifle will shoot this cartridge and bullet accurately and we all know that is not the case.

 

[goodkid1]

Have only shot a 260 rem and 65284...in my loading and testing the 260 didn't shoot factory ammo worth a beans...but i was able find a load that it shot bugholes...and it is an off the shelf ruger compact....16" factory rifle...
The 65284....still haven't gotten the desired finished rifle i want out of it...and today at about 3 times more money into it...although i haven't shot factory loads i have shot many handloads.....
I believe in "inherently accurate" as the blanket statement that something about the 65creed works....handloads or factory....if you can buy that rifle and walk to the shelf and buy loaded ammo or load your own on someone else data....does the gun know you really exist...or maybe everybody and their dog are now gifted marksman....
I have shot a huge variety of rifle calibers....seems my particular rifles just don't shoot as good as i like or as good as i think they should.....but when i build loads for others...they all come in rather quickly......maybe i should just quit shooting...and use them as clubs......

Just "buy" rifles as "gifts" for your friends, and insist that they store them at your house, and that you can shoot them any time you like. lol...

 

[TRG65]

I'll toss a related question into the mix. More to stir the pot than anything. I think any rifle can be accurate. However, some are easier to load for and more forgiving with a good load. Recently in the precision rifle blog, there was a series of articles that looked at the calibers and loads the pros use for PRS and NRL. The 6br/6dasher family and the 6.5x47L had the lowest SD/ES measurements. Does that mean these ratios of bore to powder capacity are the sweet spots, and a short fat cartridge in this ratio range is "inherently consistent?"

 

[adam32]

If you believe everything you read in the rags and on the WWW, then a 6.5 Creed with a Proof barrel screwed onto a Savage action should easily break every record in existence...with factory ammo.

 

[Jluck]

I'll toss a related question into the mix. More to stir the pot than anything. I think any rifle can be accurate. However, some are easier to load for and more forgiving with a good load. Recently in the precision rifle blog, there was a series of articles that looked at the calibers and loads the pros use for PRS and NRL. The 6br/6dasher family and the 6.5x47L had the lowest SD/ES measurements. Does that mean these ratios of bore to powder capacity are the sweet spots, and a short fat cartridge in this ratio range is "inherently consistent?"

Yes but it's called efficiency.

 

[GunHawk]

I've been a ballistics engineer for 40 years, taught classes all over the US & offshore. There is NO "inherent accuracy". That's code for: "it works but we're either too lazy or too stupid to figure out why." Cartridges that shoot small groups do so because of specific features that allow that to happen over a wide range of conditions; it's called product robustness and it's no accident.

You could probably best explain how bullet shape affects aerodynamics and how that alone factors into cartridge accuracy (precision).... in layman's terms.

 

[Mram10us]

I've been a ballistics engineer for 40 years, taught classes all over the US & offshore. There is NO "inherent accuracy". That's code for: "it works but we're either too lazy or too stupid to figure out why." Cartridges that shoot small groups do so because of specific features that allow that to happen over a wide range of conditions; it's called product robustness and it's no accident.

What you call product robustness, I consider inherent accuracy No one is arguing if it is an accident. Just debating if the cartridge is more accurate than others with all other variables constant

 

[tooth doc]

I see this term tossed around a lot, especially in any of the many 260 vrs the 6.5 CM threads. It probably comes up in the .243 vrs 6 CM too. I don't know as I don't own either. If you built a 30 CM or a 7mm CM would it be more accurate than a 308 or a 7mm/08? If the CM case design is "inherently more accurate" wouldn't it be?

Can someone define this please? Not looking for opinions, just facts. Using the 260/6.5 CM as examples. Has anyone built two rifles as identical as they can be, found the best loads for both and has the data to back up the 'inherently more accurate" statement? Has the data been verified with other identical (as can be) rifles? Say, 600 yards.

I'm not looking for a debate, argument or you can buy ammo at your local quick stop type replies. There are other post where you can do that.

BTW, I have a 260 but I don't think it's better than a CM but I also don't think it gives up anything either. My rig is a deer rifle, 22" pencil barrel, personally I don't think deer, coyotes or groundhogs can tell the difference.

So, if someone has some data based on testing that defines what makes one cartridge "inherently more accurate" than another cartridge please post it up.

Thanks, Justin

I dont think either by virtue of case is more accurate. The 6.5 crred was introduced with relatively inexpensive, match ammo that is more accurate than the hunting ammo u find for the 260. Hand load your own best loads i do t believe you would fimd a diff. The shooters in south africa love the the 260 and let me tell you they shoot groups tat would impress any one! And the 26p has some ballistic advantage! Just my thoughts.

 

[tooth doc]

I dont think either by virtue of case is more accurate. The 6.5 crred was introduced with relatively inexpensive, match ammo that is more accurate than the hunting ammo u find for the 260. Hand load your own best loads i do t believe you would fimd a diff. The shooters in south africa love the the 260 and let me tell you they shoot groups tat would impress any one! And the 26p has some ballistic advantage! Just my thoughts.

Sorry for typos, hope u can understand.

 

[mrultramag]

I would think the saami spec throat design differences could affect one cartridge accuracy over another. For example the PRC Cartridges tighter diameter throat to keep the bullet aligned with the bore..idk...just a guess on my part

 

[adam32]

Just debating if the cartridge is more accurate than others with all other variables constant

That's the issue...there's no way to eliminate all the variables. One shoots one bullet in the .1"s and the other shoots that bullet in the .3"s, so which one is better when you switch bullets? Or barrels? Or actions? Or scopes? Or rests? Or shooters? Or the wind changes? Or a new lot of powder? Or primers? Or a different brand of brass?

A 338 Lapua is by this threads definition "inherently accurate", and yet it doesn't have a sharp shoulder, it's not short and fat, it's overbore, etc...

 

[25WSM]

Whether or not one cartridge is more accurate than the other may not be true. The fact is that some cartridges are just plain and simple easy to load for. If you asked 100 people that they had to shoot a 1/4moa group and could use any cartridge they wanted it would be a very short list of the same ones. Why? Because they are inherently more accurate than the rest. Just saying they are easier to load for means they are inherently more accurate to me. I think the same would hold true if you specify a discipline like 1000 yd or long range hunting. A few cartridges would rise to the top of each list. It's because people deem them inherently more accurate than the rest. And sure a really good reloader can get the same accuracy out of many similar cartridges but how hard does he have to work to achieve it.
Shep