"Inherently more accurate"

[Canhunter35]

My buddy has a 300WSM and honestly at more than 500 yards my 338LM will hang with it? Not counting Recoil..Noise..Cost...? Even at that range you can see a difference in impact 215 Vs.300 Gr.?

im pretty sure a 338lm is considered an inherently accurate round, lapua at least thinks so

 

[Mram10us]

Because everyone uses the same type/style cartridges for certain competitions. how could they not end up as one of the top.

The earlier comparison was the worlds at williamsport 1000yd. They have everything from 6br to 300 weatherby. Even had a 6.5 creedmoor break into the top 100! gasp... They have a lot of options to choose from. Thus, shooting what gives them the smallest groups

Check out this link
http://www.pa1000yard.com/standings/sotylist.php?year=2019&cls=Light+Gun&inelig=No

 

[vancewalker007]

You will not get facts here. You will get approximately 300 different opinions. If you want facts go look at what bench resters/flcassers are winning with and setting records with. 6BR and improved, 6.5x284, 7SAUM, 300WSM. The 6 and the 30 are ruling right now. The 6br/improved, SAUM and WSM are just easier to make accurate and keep in tune which most shooters can't even comprehend.

The 3 300 WSMs I've been loading for have been very easy to tune in on a load compared to other cartridges I've loaded for like the 7 STW, 300 WB, 30/06, 280 Rem etc. The longer over bore stuff seems to always be more finicky about what they like as far as powder bullet combos. Not that you can't find an accuracy 7 STW recipe, mine shot sub 1/2 MOA with the right stuff, it's just harder to find it.

 

[smokepoler]

Inherently accurate means any beginner can, with just about any load, shoot 1/2 moa or better at 100 to 200 yards. 6BR and its derivatives come to mind.

 

[xsn10s]

I believe the short fat cartridges are "inherently accurate". But I've developed some 300 H&H ammo that was incredibly accurate. I've also seen production rifles with pencil thin barrel shoot bughole groups. So there are always exception to the rule. FEENIX could you please pass the popcorn? And next time caramel covered popcorn would be nice

 

[bgremill]

I see this term tossed around a lot, especially in any of the many 260 vrs the 6.5 CM threads. It probably comes up in the .243 vrs 6 CM too. I don't know as I don't own either. If you built a 30 CM or a 7mm CM would it be more accurate than a 308 or a 7mm/08? If the CM case design is "inherently more accurate" wouldn't it be?

Can someone define this please? Not looking for opinions, just facts. Using the 260/6.5 CM as examples. Has anyone built two rifles as identical as they can be, found the best loads for both and has the data to back up the 'inherently more accurate" statement? Has the data been verified with other identical (as can be) rifles? Say, 600 yards.

I'm not looking for a debate, argument or you can buy ammo at your local quick stop type replies. There are other post where you can do that.

BTW, I have a 260 but I don't think it's better than a CM but I also don't think it gives up anything either. My rig is a deer rifle, 22" pencil barrel, personally I don't think deer, coyotes or groundhogs can tell the difference.

So, if someone has some data based on testing that defines what makes one cartridge "inherently more accurate" than another cartridge please post it up.

Thanks, Justin

Forgive me if I'm totally out of line here; but, I've always found the argument over whether "inherently accurate" is real or not totally unnecessary. I believe the argument stems from a Semantic error in our language. When "inherently accurate" is used people automatically assume that the term is in reference to group size and further confuse the argument by referencing bench rest cartridges and records.
My understanding of the term has always been in relation to the "size of accuracy node" for the cartridge being discussed. The larger the node, the finer the load can be developed, the more consistent it will shoot from barrel to barrel, gun to gun. This is why bench rest shooters choose the cartridges they do. They just know 29-29.5 of Varget in a 6br will shoot crazy low es and sd every time.
Again, if I'm wrong I'm sorry to muddy this discussion with an unrelated point. Hopefully, I'm not wrong and the ****ing match can rest.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I see this term tossed around a lot, especially in any of the many 260 vrs the 6.5 CM threads. It probably comes up in the .243 vrs 6 CM too. I don't know as I don't own either. If you built a 30 CM or a 7mm CM would it be more accurate than a 308 or a 7mm/08? If the CM case design is "inherently more accurate" wouldn't it be?

Can someone define this please? Not looking for opinions, just facts. Using the 260/6.5 CM as examples. Has anyone built two rifles as identical as they can be, found the best loads for both and has the data to back up the 'inherently more accurate" statement? Has the data been verified with other identical (as can be) rifles? Say, 600 yards.

I'm not looking for a debate, argument or you can buy ammo at your local quick stop type replies. There are other post where you can do that.

BTW, I have a 260 but I don't think it's better than a CM but I also don't think it gives up anything either. My rig is a deer rifle, 22" pencil barrel, personally I don't think deer, coyotes or groundhogs can tell the difference.

So, if someone has some data based on testing that defines what makes one cartridge "inherently more accurate" than another cartridge please post it up.

Thanks, Justin

No, cartridges are not "inherently accurate"....Inherent - existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Barrels and chambers have far more to do with accuracy than the cartridge itself.

 

[30BR]

That's what I'm getting at...you can't compare strictly the case when there are so many variables that go into each one...

The specific needs of BR shooting dictate accuracy/repeat-ability to be the SOLE consideration for ctg. selection. As you say, there are myriad combinations available. However, winning combinations evolve slowly. The reason being that few cartridges offer the combination of features that just work well at various yardages. Those that do are always tinkered with till a variant seems to work better.
One well known shooter/builder created a ctg called 30 booboo. He shoots it well, but few other have tried to duplicate that success. The 6 Dasher is now giving way to the 6BRA and that little guy works from 100 to 1,000.
Believe me, if we thought a 35Whelen was the hot ticket, the firing line would be full of them.

 

[25WSM]

I shoot at Williamsport and see what cartridges do the winning. Well to be perfectly honest it's the same shooters that win all the time. There is about 10 shooters that if they are in your relay you are shooting for second place. As far as cartridges go the little 6s dominate light gun. The 300wsm dominated heavy gun. Why doesn't 300wsm dominate light gun. Recoil. When you need to send 10 rounds down there 20 sec or less the light recoil of the 6s keep the gun tracking in the bags better. I've tried many cartridges and I do best with a 6.5 Creed. The 147eldm has a high bc and it goes 2850 the same speed As my 300wsm. My heavy gun weighs 77 pounds so the 300wsm doesn't really move in the bags much. Both these rounds have wide tune windows. Both guns at 100 yds shoot in the zeros. And the Creed has shot a 3.9 inch in a match. I shot 5 and 6s with a 6slr. I really don't think the 6.5 is more accurate than my 6slr but with the wind at Williamsport it has a better chance. You guys want to see fast come out and watch Bob Shields shoot his 10 shots. He's a dang machine and at the top of the winners list consistently. He could probably beat me with my own gun. Because like I said in the beginning. The same guys are always at the top.
Shep

 

[Deleted member 112174]

I see this term tossed around a lot, especially in any of the many 260 vrs the 6.5 CM threads. It probably comes up in the .243 vrs 6 CM too. I don't know as I don't own either. If you built a 30 CM or a 7mm CM would it be more accurate than a 308 or a 7mm/08? If the CM case design is "inherently more accurate" wouldn't it be?

Can someone define this please? Not looking for opinions, just facts. Using the 260/6.5 CM as examples. Has anyone built two rifles as identical as they can be, found the best loads for both and has the data to back up the 'inherently more accurate" statement? Has the data been verified with other identical (as can be) rifles? Say, 600 yards.

I'm not looking for a debate, argument or you can buy ammo at your local quick stop type replies. There are other post where you can do that.

BTW, I have a 260 but I don't think it's better than a CM but I also don't think it gives up anything either. My rig is a deer rifle, 22" pencil barrel, personally I don't think deer, coyotes or groundhogs can tell the difference.

So, if someone has some data based on testing that defines what makes one cartridge "inherently more accurate" than another cartridge please post it up.

Thanks, Justin

Justin, I think you are asking a great question. In this universe the second law of thermodynamics says that nothing is inherently accurate. The things we do to minimize this leads to what we call accuracy, of more precisely precision. Some cartridges may have a number of those things engineered into them that help with this precision. But the cartridge alone is not precise. I needs a system including a chamber and barrel, trigger and firing pin to start ignition. In the field, you are part of the "bullet delivery" system. You have confidence in your .260, as well you should; it has much to commend it for the uses you named. I doubt if you can tell any difference between your .260 and a similar 6.5 CM or 6.5 x 55, or similar cartridge. I have a .300 savage in a model 99 that shoots 5/8 inch groups with handloads of 165 grain Grand Slams. The trajectory is not a flat as a a 6.5 at the same speed, but it is suitable for what I do with it. I think you are on to something, we use "inherently accurate" as a phrase to imply benefits that are hard if not impossible to measure. Building two rifles exactly the same is probably not possible. If you want good performance on a variety of game from close to reasonable distances, a 6.5 has a lot to say for itself. My .300 Savage and my 35 Whelen are the two most accurate rifles I own. I have confidence that they are precise enough to hit a reasonable target at reasonable range and collect the game. Beware the man who has one rifle and knows how to use it.

 

[25WSM]

If you don't think a long case can win look up Bob from viper rest. He has more wood on his wall than a 200 yr old oak. Dominated fclass.
Cartridge 6.5-06 ai
Shep

 

[Huntz]

Any cartridge could be labeled inherently accurate which is why it is a very inaccurate description.Any cartridge can be accurate even a 30/30 which are being used in BR competition.Example below on link.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?95849-Why-I-Shoot-the-30-30-in-Benchrest

 

[Mram10us]

I shoot at Williamsport and see what cartridges do the winning. Well to be perfectly honest it's the same shooters that win all the time. There is about 10 shooters that if they are in your relay you are shooting for second place. As far as cartridges go the little 6s dominate light gun. The 300wsm dominated heavy gun. Why doesn't 300wsm dominate light gun. Recoil. When you need to send 10 rounds down there 20 sec or less the light recoil of the 6s keep the gun tracking in the bags better. I've tried many cartridges and I do best with a 6.5 Creed. The 147eldm has a high bc and it goes 2850 the same speed As my 300wsm. My heavy gun weighs 77 pounds so the 300wsm doesn't really move in the bags much. Both these rounds have wide tune windows. Both guns at 100 yds shoot in the zeros. And the Creed has shot a 3.9 inch in a match. I shot 5 and 6s with a 6slr. I really don't think the 6.5 is more accurate than my 6slr but with the wind at Williamsport it has a better chance. You guys want to see fast come out and watch Bob Shields shoot his 10 shots. He's a dang machine and at the top of the winners list consistently. He could probably beat me with my own gun. Because like I said in the beginning. The same guys are always at the top.
Shep

I was surprised to see the 300wsm had two of the top three spots in shooter of the year 2019 in light gun.

 

[25WSM]

Some guys can handle that kind of recoil. Not many can in light gun. 17 pounds with a brake and the 300 will still torque in the bags and make your table manners count. I personally can't do it. Sometimes I think my Creed kicks too much.
Shep