Improving the 308 Win performance

[nralifer]

Fact is that the 150 BD2 bullet has a higher BC than the 168 Berger and from a 26" barrel, LVR and SRP brass can be shot at 3150 fps without any pressure problems. It will out perform the 168 Berger at 875 yds. So if the Berger can do it so will the 150 BD2.

Nevertheless, it is a shot to be very proud of regardless of what bullet was used.

 

[Wachsmann]

For me and this is just my thinking we all sometime over emphasize and kind of put bulletproof vest on animals to justify certain shootings ideologies and what bullet can and can't do. Yep no doubt it was a great shot and the bullet did exit. So who know how much bone it impacted. I think I can actually set back a little on my 300 RUM and not worry about getting the most out of the velocity department as I have done in the past. I can probably work with the load I was running with the 195's at 2700 in my 308 or choose a more solid type of bullet for a little better performance. My 7-08 with what I'm shooting will also work or same thing something in a stronger bullet construction. I do think it's what some of the old timers new long ago with the Amax bullets. Once they slow down at extended ranges they act more kind of like a solid and expansion is limited due to the slower speed and they might tumble also after penetration. But with that pass through I don't really see it tumbling. Just some thoughts. Keep practicing and keep the groups small so when needed you can pull off your longer than normal shot and do it because you already done it hundreds of time on steal. Yep; Provided I can find primers!!! Have powder and bullets my primers are getting low.

 

[Bravo 4]

For me and this is just my thinking we all sometime over emphasize and kind of put bulletproof vest on animals to justify certain shootings ideologies and what bullet can and can't do. Yep no doubt it was a great shot and the bullet did exit. So who know how much bone it impacted. I think I can actually set back a little on my 300 RUM and not worry about getting the most out of the velocity department as I have done in the past. I can probably work with the load I was running with the 195's at 2700 in my 308 or choose a more solid type of bullet for a little better performance.

That last sentence is what I was getting at in my prior post. We have several .300 WinMags in my vault that will barely exceed your .308 Winchester's velocity with our 190 gr ammo. Take your .308 with your 195 load (assuming Hornady ELD-M) and you have better external performance almost from the muzzle out (and potentially terminal). Most hunters would automatically think since I have a .300 "Magnum" that I would be more properly equipped for long range big game than you with your .308. Simply not so.
Now as far as the bulletproof vest clad big game animals go; I tend to think worse case scenario and want to maximize any opportunity I can get. Especially if an elk hunt means I may not get to go for years at a time- spend several hundred to thousands of dollars on tags- Lord knows how much time and money on gear and all the preparations- drive 1200+ miles one way- hike for days on end and get one chance at an animal that could be well over half a mile away. When that time comes I want as much performance as possible. This usually means a larger cartridge, shooting a large-high BC bullet that will "buck the wind" and deliver as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Considering I have had deer go back to eating after being drilled behind the shoulder with a Hornady SST from a 7mm RemMag at under 150 yards, and a small bull elk absorb a 300 grain Berger out of a .338 RUM at 40 yards like it was nothing and just walk off. I know they aren't bullet proof…but they don't!
Having said that, I may have to see what my .308 will do with the BD2's, and go kill an elk at LR.
This post was not to show any disregard to you personally or your post Wachsmann, only to highlight a different outlook and my perspective.

 

[fordy]

Gday
let's forget brand of pill for a moment & look @ fundamentals of pills good & bad

Good is consistency across various resistances & velocity impacts that creates a good terminal result that the animal is secured in a very short space of time from impact to tip

Bad is the inconsistent results that occur
Eg a blow up on shoulder to a pencil through the ribs etc & yes we can stop this from a placement or restricting our impacts to a good velocity window on our behalf to a point but we can't guarantee it in the field we will not place it exactly where we want %100 of the time

those can argue that above & I just say keep shooting or look forward to seeing you with a gold medal around your neck in Paris 2024 ( on tv of course as I'm hopeless )

So we have blow up or pencils then add in tumbling which is caused on the whole from a inadequate twist , nosing over , shoulder stabilisation, construction ,
length & meplat shape /deformation ( that's what I look @ others probably know more than me so please speak up if I've missed anything )
Some of these can be fixed others it's out of our control

It's understanding how as hunters our choices will help us get more good results & less of those bad

some are just unexplained yep get that & some people also state it's a dead critter so who cares well the guy /gal who just lost theirs when you see tell tail signs prior yep they really care & that's what I look @ & test to lesson the risk of it happening


Now I'm going to go back to my point a lot of posts ago
So once again @nrailer Please show me the terminals don't just go quiet or say this pill opens to x & that dosent lift the bar or help anyone .
Ignore me if anyone wants that's their priority but if you don't even get a simple explanation it shows me the snake oil agenda may be a fair indication of reality

Let's go back to that gemsbok ( oryx ) & I've shot a few of them over my time & saw a lot killed the majority rib shots with Barnes , partition & amax as the most popular

I was hoping people would have delved a little deeper on that gemsbok ( great write up byrddog thankyou )
& I don't know why as it's a bad result , yes critter is secured but now we have a rib shot & a tumbled pill & we haven't even got to the so called lower impacts this brand will work , imo open yes work hmm guess it depends on one's standards & I'll leave everyone to make their mind up but as you take velocity away tumbles / turns become more apparent especially on large animals

tumbles are erratic & lucky it went through the vitals ( straighline penertration is more consistent because we can aim for vitals not hope we get them )

Now this also gets into the metalergy of the pill also as some are brittle some soft & most in between , these all act differently depending on what it impacts , some bone sorts this out fairly quickly & especially once a angle is incorporated
Now a rib of a gemsbok is not hard & especially on that angle move that to a harder bone & or more mass , angles also come into play
You have got a critter that has way more chance of being lost or a long run that also may end in a unrecovered critter

I will also dispute the time it takes a animal to expire with a hole /tear in diaphragm add that to a lung & liver wound & the vast majority of those critters don't travel no where near this distance & bleed out fairly quickly than just a lung shot of minimal wounding ( position of wounds is also important in lungs ) or is it that this is actually showing us that the wound created wasn't as good as the good pills hmmm yes the long runs have a pattern !!!

Yes I care what is put up on paper as surely it's in our own interest to speak factual evidence not some oh on paper & until we are shown repeatedly that a mushroom mono will outperform or @ a minimum equal a good frangible @1700 I call BS & I'll say it's a lot higher on the best mushroom mono which still isn't as good as a good frangible yes mushroom monos need speed
I've got no closed mind show me factual evidence & I welcome the bar to be raised but I'll have nothing to do with BS

I guess it's where the bc argument wins the race or is it clouds some peoples thoughts

Yes I get the bc part but IT SHOULD NEVER BE @ THE EXPENSE OF TERMINAL RESULTS

Cheers

 

[nralifer]

That last sentence is what I was getting at in my prior post. We have several .300 WinMags in my vault that will barely exceed your .308 Winchester's velocity with our 190 gr ammo. Take your .308 with your 195 load (assuming Hornady ELD-M) and you have better external performance almost from the muzzle out (and potentially terminal). Most hunters would automatically think since I have a .300 "Magnum" that I would be more properly equipped for long range big game than you with your .308. Simply not so.
Now as far as the bulletproof vest clad big game animals go; I tend to think worse case scenario and want to maximize any opportunity I can get. Especially if an elk hunt means I may not get to go for years at a time- spend several hundred to thousands of dollars on tags- Lord knows how much time and money on gear and all the preparations- drive 1200+ miles one way- hike for days on end and get one chance at an animal that could be well over half a mile away. When that time comes I want as much performance as possible. This usually means a larger cartridge, shooting a large-high BC bullet that will "buck the wind" and deliver as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Considering I have had deer go back to eating after being drilled behind the shoulder with a Hornady SST from a 7mm RemMag at under 150 yards, and a small bull elk absorb a 300 grain Berger out of a .338 RUM at 40 yards like it was nothing and just walk off. I know they aren't bullet proof…but they don't!
Having said that, I may have to see what my .308 will do with the BD2's, and go kill an elk at LR.
This post was not to show any disregard to you personally or your post Wachsmann, only to highlight a different outlook and my perspective.

From your description of an Elk hunt and the trouble and expense one goes through to do it, one wonders why do it at all, but yet we all dream of doing it at least once if, not repeatedly. That is why we spent 2 years testing various hollow point designs for reliability of expansion and integrating a tip to preserve BC. The two biggest factors that influenced the final design were material ductility and force concentration. In the end we realized that custom tooling was necessary to execute the design we knew would open reliably. Pure copper is not easy to machine but it has the right ductility so that the petals will bend back at a 1.5 caliber diameter, and the copper could be made thin enough to open reliably. The aluminum tip, or any tip for that matter, actually hinders expansion, but aluminum it does one crucial function and that is it preserves BC and aids the initial puncture of the skin without any deformation of the meplat. Once that happens the force of impact transmitted to the copper hollow point enlarges the hollow diameter loosening the tip such that it falls out and fully exposes the hollow to the in-rush of soft tissue and ripping of the copper along weak cuts along the length of the hollow causing a predictable petaling pattern. The pure copper, being softer than free machining copper bends back rather than fracturing. The petals are sharp and take advantage of the rotational motion of the bullet imparted to it by the barrel rifling (typically over 200,000RPM). That motion, coupled with the fact that the bullet will also have a linear force of several thousands of foot pounds of force distributed over 1.5 caliber diameter, causes the expanded bullet to drill and forcibly displace tissue such that a large temporary wound cavity is created and penetration is maximized. Thus, high impact velocities as well as low impact velocities are associated with 30+ inch penetrations regardless of the angle of impact. In all instances the bullet shank is preserved so that even in the extreme impact (say less that 50 yds) where the petals may shear off after 5-6" of penetration, the surviving shank tumbles causing massive organ damage. The high BC relative to bullet weight means that over distance the bullet sheds its energy at a lower rate, meaning it will travel further before reaching the recommended minimum impact velocity. Thus the "performance envelope" of the bullet is much wider than conventional lead core bullets or copper bullets of similar weight but lower BC.

 

[nralifer]

Gday
let's forget brand of pill for a moment & look @ fundamentals of pills good & bad

Good is consistency across various resistances & velocity impacts that creates a good terminal result that the animal is secured in a very short space of time from impact to tip

Bad is the inconsistent results that occur
Eg a blow up on shoulder to a pencil through the ribs etc & yes we can stop this from a placement or restricting our impacts to a good velocity window on our behalf to a point but we can't guarantee it in the field we will not place it exactly where we want %100 of the time

those can argue that above & I just say keep shooting or look forward to seeing you with a gold medal around your neck in Paris 2024 ( on tv of course as I'm hopeless )

So we have blow up or pencils then add in tumbling which is caused on the whole from a inadequate twist , nosing over , shoulder stabilisation, construction ,
length & meplat shape /deformation ( that's what I look @ others probably know more than me so please speak up if I've missed anything )
Some of these can be fixed others it's out of our control

It's understanding how as hunters our choices will help us get more good results & less of those bad

some are just unexplained yep get that & some people also state it's a dead critter so who cares well the guy /gal who just lost theirs when you see tell tail signs prior yep they really care & that's what I look @ & test to lesson the risk of it happening


Now I'm going to go back to my point a lot of posts ago
So once again @nrailer Please show me the terminals don't just go quiet or say this pill opens to x & that dosent lift the bar or help anyone .
Ignore me if anyone wants that's their priority but if you don't even get a simple explanation it shows me the snake oil agenda may be a fair indication of reality

Let's go back to that gemsbok ( oryx ) & I've shot a few of them over my time & saw a lot killed the majority rib shots with Barnes , partition & amax as the most popular

I was hoping people would have delved a little deeper on that gemsbok ( great write up byrddog thankyou )
& I don't know why as it's a bad result , yes critter is secured but now we have a rib shot & a tumbled pill & we haven't even got to the so called lower impacts this brand will work , imo open yes work hmm guess it depends on one's standards & I'll leave everyone to make their mind up but as you take velocity away tumbles / turns become more apparent especially on large animals

tumbles are erratic & lucky it went through the vitals ( straighline penertration is more consistent because we can aim for vitals not hope we get them )

Now this also gets into the metalergy of the pill also as some are brittle some soft & most in between , these all act differently depending on what it impacts , some bone sorts this out fairly quickly & especially once a angle is incorporated
Now a rib of a gemsbok is not hard & especially on that angle move that to a harder bone & or more mass , angles also come into play
You have got a critter that has way more chance of being lost or a long run that also may end in a unrecovered critter

I will also dispute the time it takes a animal to expire with a hole /tear in diaphragm add that to a lung & liver wound & the vast majority of those critters don't travel no where near this distance & bleed out fairly quickly than just a lung shot of minimal wounding ( position of wounds is also important in lungs ) or is it that this is actually showing us that the wound created wasn't as good as the good pills hmmm yes the long runs have a pattern !!!

Yes I care what is put up on paper as surely it's in our own interest to speak factual evidence not some oh on paper & until we are shown repeatedly that a mushroom mono will outperform or @ a minimum equal a good frangible @1700 I call BS & I'll say it's a lot higher on the best mushroom mono which still isn't as good as a good frangible yes mushroom monos need speed
I've got no closed mind show me factual evidence & I welcome the bar to be raised but I'll have nothing to do with BS

I guess it's where the bc argument wins the race or is it clouds some peoples thoughts

Yes I get the bc part but IT SHOULD NEVER BE @ THE EXPENSE OF TERMINAL RESULTS

Cheers

Not clear at all what you are driving at. You need to clearly understand how animals die quickly and how bullets of various designs and materials behave at impact. The goal is to have them drop where they stand. That only happens if nervous system function is shut off suddenly like a light bulb. Bullet placement is key. Ether you cause a catastrophic drop in blood pressure such that brain perfusion stops or you blow up the brain directly with a head shot. The bullets you mentioned, I have used on various African an North American game with both good results and very bad results despite adequate bullet placement. These erratic results were clearly from inconsistent bullet behavior after impact which is a consequence of bullet materials, construction and design. If you refuse to believe what I say then ignore it and use something else. The US is so far a free country. Because poorly performing bullets and/or guns can kill things does not mean that we have to be satisfied with them and want to use something better. That's why we have evolved from the era of the black powder match lock musket to the high velocity center fire rifle. I would also invite you to try and make a better bullet yourself, rather than just sit back and criticize.

 

[VLD Pilot]

So the 308 will perform equally to the 300WM ??? This is something I have NEVER heard till right here. Same 195 ELD from both at each cartridges average velocity with the same bullet ? Geez, I've been shooting a 300PRC all this time and could have simply just used my 308 and had the same outcome at 1000 yards ? Shame on me.

 

[ncwg2boatguy]

2920 from a 150gr bullet in a 20" barrel is hauling ***. How are you getting the velocity.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

I've never shot an elk nor butchered said animal. I've did both several times on Whitetail. As per the statements here how much tougher is the hide of an elk. Heavier the bone, muscle, distance from fur to heart, lungs, liver on the average vitals shot. I know they are larger and much heavier. I also understand blood content etc. Just something I have no experience with.

 

[Bravo 4]

So the 308 will perform equally to the 300WM ??? This is something I have NEVER heard till right here. Same 195 ELD from both at each cartridges average velocity with the same bullet ? Geez, I've been shooting a 300PRC all this time and could have simply just used my 308 and had the same outcome at 1000 yards ? Shame on me.

If you are referring to my statement, then we both know that apples to apples it is not going to happen. You run a maximized .308 against an average/poorly loaded .300, and you will get something to compare.

 

[Bravo 4]

From your description of an Elk hunt and the trouble and expense one goes through to do it, one wonders why do it at all, but yet we all dream of doing it at least once if, not repeatedly.

I never claimed to be of high intelligence.

 

[fordy]

Gday nrailer thank-you that's actually quite funny for a attempt to understand me or is it deflection from answering those questions & I'll put it simple & add a bit for nostalgic reasons

So Is a tumble one we should strive to achieve terminally or avoid ?
Your 150 gr pill @1700 impact will have a better terminal outcome than a good frangible , man I'll also give you 2100 if you want to make it interesting yeah let's do both
Using Impact to tip or am I mistaken this is not a good method if so what do I need to use



You sir are entitled to make your decision on I don't no what kills & I take that on board with the knowledge you are also wrong on this

I'm really pretty dumb @ putting a sentence together in a constructive manner & why you may use big words , I just use a simple fur calculator yes it's from bullet impact to animal tip nothing fancy just pure factual evidence & then when you add different angles & resistance the fur calculator takes on another level & compiled in my data sheets but that's me & my way so I'm cool if some don't like it but a few people do also a couple companies do but I don't say look @ me with all of that so I really don't need to make my own bullets as I get them too as they will listen & learn like I do to them that hopefully raises the bar
Yes I'm no guru but very good @ what I do that I do know & I've just upgraded on the information I gather in my data sheets to help understand what the better terminal pills are doing yes it's called moving with the times & that I do do & also others are using these sheets which is great as the bar will be lifted quicker when documentation like this is sourced

The part of me not moving forward is also funny as a new pill comes out I'm usually straight onto it trying to gain a little bit more preformance on where the last best pill had weaknesses in its design some have worked others not but the bar has been raised from those black powder days that we do agree on

criticism is also funny as people take it in different ways

Me tell me I'm wrong & show me why & I'll mend my way take it on board & move forward then those who are on the other side of the fence
Yes I don't mind eating crow as it's been a pretty good staple of my diet for a lot of years

Cheers

 

[VLD Pilot]

If you are referring to my statement, then we both know that apples to apples it is not going to happen. You run a maximized .308 against an average/poorly loaded .300, and you will get something to compare.

Maybe still doubtful

 

[VLD Pilot]

If you are referring to my statement, then we both know that apples to apples it is not going to happen. You run a maximized .308 against an average/poorly loaded .300, and you will get something to compare.

That's exactly The statement I'm referring to.