xsn10s
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Or nralifer do you have any load data for 30-06 22" 1-10 twist with similar ballistics? That could become my elk load out to 700 yards for my light weight hunting rifle.
Improving the 308 Win performance
- Thread starter nralifer
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DoneNOut
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Where does the notion "No point in going over 20" barrel on a 308 WIN" come from?
All very interesting, but I would like to point out that in 1911 Lt. Col. Eduard Rubin improving upon his earlier black powder cartridges, introduced the Gewehrpatron 1911 [GP11] aka the 7.5x55 Swiss that easily out performs the .308 as a service round. Think of it as the "big brother" to the .308. A very interesting round that is quite popular overseas and it is still in military service. If I had to pick one 30 caliber for the rest of my life it would be a 7.5x55 Swiss in a nice bolt action. 1911 was some kind of year for gun designers. Just sayin...
DoneNOut
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.296 cal?
Kentuckywindage
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Yes sir. I have a 22 inch 1/10 twist. Because I have a stock of SMK 175gr I run those in Lapua brass, CFE223 powder, lit with CCI large primer 2.800" O.A.L. @ an average of 2731 fps at 50⁰. 46gr starts to show pressure in 90 plus heat.
A Berger Hybrid 168gr. Over 46.6 gr CFE223 in Lapua brass lit with CCI Large primer 2.870 O.A.L. @ 2835 fps. @ 66⁰ . This all at around 750 ft. Weather here can go from well below zero to 105 at times. 2ft of snow with high drifts to almost tropical weather and humidity you can carry around in a bucket. I've ran IMR4064 and Varget also. (Won't bore you nice gentleman with all the information) and have really been pressed to just run Varget over the Berger. After I run through a thousand or so 175gr turds. I will add this has been the most accurate combo in this Savage m10 heavy barrel. All stock just a few polishing spots. This out to 1000 yards breaking clay pigeons. I know how that must sound, but it is on video and witnessed by my shooting partner. This is also 5 to 6 evenings a week, rain, wind, or shine. Same private shooting spot everytime. When I found this loading 44.5 to 46.0gr shot 5 rounds in a very close group same spot and shape on the target. The target was my first Avatar here. After seeing that I just went with the CFE223 / SMK 175gr load. In the beginning this Savage had a very short throat. As Federal Gold Medal match 175gr. was at times bumping lands. Last measure, (I know the top shooters say, don't chase the lands) I was bumping 2.830 with SMK 175gr touching lands. This rifle has had a number of rounds through it. I would be embarrassed to guess on that number. Lots of hot rounds also. Last outing that little guy was just absolutely hammering at 1000. I've had it to 1200 with excellent results and 1500 with a little less cheering material. Still impressive. Best shooting stock rifle I have ever shot by far. I've been shooting 10 years. Just started the every evening able 3 years ago.
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okie man
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I was able to safely get a very accurate 2825fps with 168 grain bthp and imr4064 . Barrel was 25". Careful handloading with the bigger 30/06 case will allow a 150+ fps advantage. most modern manuals choke down 30/06 data because of old military guns still floating around. The same case necked to 280 ai has a higher Max pressure limit. If you stop where the manuals says you might be giving up some performance you don't have too.
xsn10s
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I get the same with IMR 4064 and RL 15 168 gr CC or a 168 ELDM. Nosler lists 2900 fps with their 165-168 gr bullets using Big Game. I'd try it but I'm going to concentrate on a different rifle right now.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%, there's no replacement for displacement and cases with more capacity will always outrun smaller cases if you optimize them.
Being dishonest and stacking a 125gn in a 308 and a 220 in a 30-06 and claiming the 308 is faster, or the flip side of putting a 168 in a 30-06 and a 220 in a 308 and wondering why the 308 doesn't have the poop to keep up at distance isn't fair either. The question really centers on what case size is more efficient for the speed you need. If ranges don't push out to where the a bullet goes transonic, it's all just paper racing and wind deflection. 308 will usually be more efficient than a 30-06 in the short range envelope of 0-800 yards and wind deflection difference is manageable. I'm saying that as an unrepentant 30-06 guy.
To be entirely fair to the 308 Win the books don't normally cover Palma SRP brass either, it can be pushed harder than it used to could also. If you pushing anything up to 72k PSI it'll run faster than the book claims it should
Justice1327
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Did you find CFE223 to be dirtier than most powders?
graywolf
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I want to test some loads for my 20" .308 with 150 BD2s comparing Varget, TAC, CFE 223 and LVR. I have a few pieces of Lapua Palma left and just got some Lapua LRP that I'll have to switch to soon. Anyway, I found that 47 gr LVR gave me 2921 fps with good accuracy. I could easily go up a grain or more probably but that is a good load and mild.
With Varget, I couldn't seat the bullet even going down to 45 gr. The boat tail on the BD2 is long compared with the 155 Scenar, which I usually load with 46.5 gr Varget. Maybe this is a trade off for the superior BC of the BD2.
I'll try 48 LVR and TAC and CFE when I have time. The rifle is a Tikka 11 twist.
With Varget, I couldn't seat the bullet even going down to 45 gr. The boat tail on the BD2 is long compared with the 155 Scenar, which I usually load with 46.5 gr Varget. Maybe this is a trade off for the superior BC of the BD2.
I'll try 48 LVR and TAC and CFE when I have time. The rifle is a Tikka 11 twist.
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nralifer
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I clearly did. That's what led me to use Leverevolution in the 308Win. After about 20 shots or so with trying CFE223 I noticed that the rounds were getting harder to chamber and for the same load I started to notice pressure signs in those hard to chamber loads. I cleaned the barrel of carbon and the problem went away temporarily. It became obvious to me that I was dealing with a carbon buildup in the throat. I switched to LVR after re-cleaning the barrel and found that the problem simply went away. Fortunately CFE 223 and LVR had similar burn rates with LVR being a bit slower, so I could use similar powder charges. I then went back to the reloading manuals and found that there was no data for LVR in the 308Win, but there was in the 338Fed. Ironically I have come to the conclusion that the LVR is superb in the 308Win. My own personal opinion is that it is better than anything else on average. Temp stability is not bad either.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
Still no pressure data for these hot .308 Win loads. I would guess that with good small primer brass they would be approximate that of the 6.5X47 Lapua. Pressures might run at 64,000 psi or more.
My thoughts about loading the .308 Win to such pressures with suitable burning rates would require ball powders as they have greater density & the little .308 case would contain more powder. High quality small primer brass such as Lapua 6.5X47 can endure high pressures like 63,000 psi or more without excessive primer pocket expansion. A consideration would be, how consistently would small rifle primers ignite relatively large amounts of ball powders having heavy deterrent coatings. 52 grains of an equivalent extruded powder like 4350 won't fit inside the little .308 W case.
Powder densities:
Like 1 grain of H4350 is .0725 cc compared to 1 grain of H414 is .0661 cc.
The table below compares primer blast wave pressures shown by kilo Pascals:
The CCI 450 generates 1602 kP, the CCI 200 generates 2561 kP. The CCI 450 has 37.4 % less blast pressure than the CCI 200.
More .308 W, small rifle primer data is required, like how good does it shoot and how big are velocity spreads. Hodgdon LVR (Leverevolution - cute name) appears to be slightly faster than W760/H414. Small ball powder grains heavily deterrent coated. Cold temperatures would also affect small rifle primer ignition.
Palma .30 cal. competitors are restricted to .308 ammo using 155 grain bullets. A common load is H4895 & Lapua srp brass. Velocities are about 3,000 fps with 30-inch-long barrels. Sadly, a .300WM loaded with the same bullet in a 24-inch barrel can only get about 10% more velocity than the popular .308 Palma load. My preferred match .308 W load was a 168-match bullet with 42.5 H4895 or 44.0 H380 - large rifle standard primers - soft recoil, great for rapid fire & enough velocity for 600 yards.
If I had to shoot some big beast at my self imposed maximum hunting range of 400 yards I would select a .300 WM using 200 grain bullets and tolerate efficiency deficits.
My thoughts about loading the .308 Win to such pressures with suitable burning rates would require ball powders as they have greater density & the little .308 case would contain more powder. High quality small primer brass such as Lapua 6.5X47 can endure high pressures like 63,000 psi or more without excessive primer pocket expansion. A consideration would be, how consistently would small rifle primers ignite relatively large amounts of ball powders having heavy deterrent coatings. 52 grains of an equivalent extruded powder like 4350 won't fit inside the little .308 W case.
Powder densities:
Like 1 grain of H4350 is .0725 cc compared to 1 grain of H414 is .0661 cc.
The table below compares primer blast wave pressures shown by kilo Pascals:
The CCI 450 generates 1602 kP, the CCI 200 generates 2561 kP. The CCI 450 has 37.4 % less blast pressure than the CCI 200.
More .308 W, small rifle primer data is required, like how good does it shoot and how big are velocity spreads. Hodgdon LVR (Leverevolution - cute name) appears to be slightly faster than W760/H414. Small ball powder grains heavily deterrent coated. Cold temperatures would also affect small rifle primer ignition.
Palma .30 cal. competitors are restricted to .308 ammo using 155 grain bullets. A common load is H4895 & Lapua srp brass. Velocities are about 3,000 fps with 30-inch-long barrels. Sadly, a .300WM loaded with the same bullet in a 24-inch barrel can only get about 10% more velocity than the popular .308 Palma load. My preferred match .308 W load was a 168-match bullet with 42.5 H4895 or 44.0 H380 - large rifle standard primers - soft recoil, great for rapid fire & enough velocity for 600 yards.
If I had to shoot some big beast at my self imposed maximum hunting range of 400 yards I would select a .300 WM using 200 grain bullets and tolerate efficiency deficits.
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nralifer
Well-Known Member
As a practical matter I would simply try the CCI450 in SRP brass in cold weather under range conditions. I have never had an ignition problem down to temps in the low 30F with LVR, and one guy from Canada, Manitoba as I recall, has used them in much colder temps without hang fires. Ball powders, especially partially flattened ones like LVR have more surface area/grain volume so for that reason alone should ignite easier. I share your concerns about ignition and cold temps with SRPs. I have used the 6.5x47 with our high BC 135BD2 bullet from a 26" 1:7 Bartlein barrel and get 3030fps with no concerns. Blows factory Creeds out of the water. Hunted Antelope in mid 30f weather with SRPs with no sign of hang fires. The 308 Win has got a lot more potential power with the SRP brass. I can safely shoot a 175 gr BD2 bullet from a 24" Bartlein to 2850 and from a 26" Savage to 2930 fps using Lapua Palma brass. Our high BC 150 gr BD2 bullet can safely be pushed well over 3050+fps from either barrel with LVR and SRP brass. The pic below shows no significant primer flattening, only some cratering which is par for the course with Savage actions because of greater clearance of the firing pin with the hole in the bolt. There was no ejector mark or heavy bolt lift. Extraction was normal.
