Idaho muzzleloader definition

[edge]

SNIP

for the purpose of experiencing a hunt similar to what our forefathers would have experienced 150+ years ago;

SNIP

What a Crock!

Are you telling us that the folks went to their hunting spots without motorized vehicles! I doubt it! If somebody wants to hunt primitive, then do it 100% or stop talking nonsense...no gasoline period. From the time you leave your house ONLY things available 150 years ago....that means no Percussion caps too! If your hunting area is 100 miles from home then walk, use a mule, a horse, etc.

IN-LINE muzzleloaders were around before the percussion cap, and HUNDREDS of years before Pyrodex and Triple Seven!

Here is what has happened in some places in NJ.
Instead of letting hunters harvest deer some towns hired a company called White Buffalo to bring in sharpshooters to shoot deer over bait piles, even at night at a final cost of over $600 per deer shot!

Divide and conquer!

Go PETA!

edge.

 

[dirtball]

**** when I read billtyler's start to this post I never thought it would attract this much attention. This is a GOOD thing; it shows that there are really people out there that care. I personally think that "Pat S" is right on the money. I only hope that those of you who have taken the time to respond on this forum will also take the time to contact your State Fish and Game Departments and let them know how you feel.
The Hunting Industry is VERY busy trying to get the states to allow all of the "new technology" so that they can sell product.
The State F & G are trying to balance two things; first the management of the wildlife in their particular state, second the desires of the hunting community. Remember that the numbers of hunters in the field has been declining for several years and therefore they are looking for ways to "Increase Opportunity" to bring more people into the sport. This is one reason they are listening to "In-line muzzle loader and crossbow manufacturers " who are pushing their products as an opportunity to increase hunter numbers.
The next time you are around a group of hunters look around and see how many of them are under 30, compared to those over 50. Our youth are spending more time in front of the computer (Says I while I sit in front of the computer) than they do outside.
There were no computers when I as a kid so I spent most of my time playing in the woods with a slingshot or a BB gun.
With the help of the Chairman of the Virginia Fish and Game Commission, three years ago the "Crossbow advocates" got crossbows included in the General Archery season. So now Long Bows and Crossbows are treated exactly the same in Virginia.
I wrote letters went to meetings and made LOTS of phone calls but there were not enough of us to stop the change.
If you do not participate in the process you have NO RIGHT to bitch when you do not like the outcome.
Same goes for voting!!!!

Think I am going to get away from this computer and go kill something.
Dave

 

[BountyHunter]

Rules for primitive weapons need to be set in stone and technology arrested. As far as I'm concerned what other states do is their business but Idaho shouldn't follow the whims of the firearms or archery industries or the latest gadget or craze on the "Outdoor Channel".

Idealistic statement but very grossly naive to think that is even possible.

If it was followed by your grandfather, archery today would be wood arrows and lemonwood bows only, and you would have the real tradionalists crying like a rat eating onions of the unfair advantage those guys have over the self bows and flint arrows.

Technology will never be arrested. Here is a perfect example. We have fast twist sidelock barrels now and super high BC "lead" bullets that make a 200 yd shot highly accurate with less than 8' drop from a 100 yd zero.

We already know inlines have been here before caplocks. So if they were here before caplocks, and this is as 150 yrs ago, they must be legal also. Maybe the arguement should be that the caplock that is the modern technology?

What you consider modern technology today, your grandson will consider primitive.

Lets not limit the modern technology prohibitions to just primitive seasons. Mandate use lever action 44-40s for general firearms. Got to hold them technological advances, heaven forbid another hunter get those advantages and I get my panties in a wad over that.

For those wanting to use modern technology, let them hunt during the general season. Using 200 to 300 yd. muzzleloaders violates the intent of what a muzzleloader season is really about.

Says who? Once again, people are inserting their personal beliefs and desires what it should be based on "what you want" and trying to mandate how eveyone else should hunt. that is what this whole discussion is about.

Where is it written that everyone else has to hunt like "you" want them to??

Quite simply it is nothing more than personal whims/desires and trying to mandate those on everyone else!

What is really interesting, I have only heard one or two commenters here talk about opening more land for hunting, trying to get kids involved, grow hunting opportunities. Yet we see numerous comments about restricting it for the protection of the chosen ones because they basically do not want to compete with the extra competition. Oh, they normally will not say it in those open terms but even Ray Charles can see it. Once again, IMO totally selfish motives and have nothing to do with the good of the sport or programs.

How is that good for hunting, the game mgmt programs and the sport?

I am not a personal fan of crossbows, but it put more hunters in the field in VA and has overall been positive, except for the required O2 that must be given routinely to the die hard traditional archers.

Yes, that helped companies, but more importantly it helped hunting and allowed more hunters to hunt and to keep hunting. No one stays 25 yrs old and can always use traditional archery or open sights.

BH

 

[edge]

dirtball, I don't get your response!

In one sentence you complain about decreasing number of hunters, and that lack of younger hunters. Then you complain that the new technologies that ARE bringing in the new hunters is bad for hunting!

New hunters could care less about acting like Davey Crockett, they don't have the time to hang out like happened when this was a more agricultural Country. People do not have the Winter off from farming as in times long ago.

Times change, this is 2008....evolve or become extinct! That is what the anti's want!

edge.

 

[dirtball]

dirtball, I don't get your response!

In one sentence you complain about decreasing number of hunters, and that lack of younger hunters. Then you complain that the new technologies that ARE bringing in the new hunters is bad for hunting!
edge.

What I am saying is that NONE of us get our way ALL of the time, but that is the way a FREE society works.
But I will stay involved, and that is what makes the system work.
The balance comes from more people getting involved in the process, and the less influence that one side has. The Anti's and the Manufacturers are heavily involved.
I went to a regional meeting, in northern Virginia, two years ago when the VDGIF was having a public meeting about the proposed changes to the upcoming hunting regulations. There were NINE people from the VDGIF present and THREE, I repeat THREE, hunters took the time to show up. I was totally embarrassed for the hunting community that ONLY three people showed up.
This is why I was encouraged that this post is drawing this much comment, but we need to take it beyond this forum to your states Fish and Game Dept's.
Dave

 

[billtyler]

Wow, I had no idea my thread would snowball like this. Reading these posts has been good for me—especially those from Bounty—and I'm glad I asked this question before I submitted a response to the ID F&G. I thought I had a solid opinion on this matter, but I'm sometimes criticized for being too one-sided in my arguments without considering the bigger picture. I'm trying to change that, which led me to pose the question in the first place. Glad I did. I can honestly say that after reading the comments and thinking about it a little more, my viewpoint on this matter has been altered. Thanks for the input.

Closing doors to future hunters is a large concern of mine, as is creating further division within the sport. Though I have to say I was opposed to it in the beginning, it seems to me reversing the state's muzzleloader definition and allowing the use of in-lines would be better in the long run. I'm a "traditional" ML shooter (though I'm confused on exactly what that is now ) and don't like hearing myself say modern in-lines are OK in my book, but there's too many strong points to ignore here whether you're talking egos, personal preferences, medical/handicap needs, game management, $$$ for the F&G departments, roadblocks for getting youth involved, etc., etc. . . Bottom line is I wouldn't want someone coming down on me for my preferred hunting method whether it's bow, rifle, or whatever—so where do I come off trying to dictate how others should enjoy their experience?

This has been a great thread for a new poster like me. Keep'em coming.

 

[Troutslayer]

So because I don't think that people with a different kind of rifle should get their own special season now I hate kids and support PETA?

A lot of my sentiments are based on the premise that the season would at some point be during the rut, which if there's going to be a muzzleloader season, this is when I think it should be (maybe a few days tucked in between rifle and archery, but no scope, other limitations). Why have a late season with a muzzleloader? Maybe that's the question we should be asking. Where is the sense in that? Late season hunts for cows should be an anything goes venue: rifles, muzzys, bows, sharp sticks, ARB bumpers, you name it. If you're going to have a late season for cows what's the difference what you kill em' with?

 

[jwp475]

Less hunters mean less revenue for the state and the decline of hunter will eventualy lead to NO HUNTING..
Apparently you are to focused on the primitive aspect to see the big picture....

 

[Pat S.]

What a Crock!

Are you telling us that the folks went to their hunting spots without motorized vehicles! I doubt it! If somebody wants to hunt primitive, then do it 100% or stop talking nonsense...no gasoline period. From the time you leave your house ONLY things available 150 years ago....that means no Percussion caps too! If your hunting area is 100 miles from home then walk, use a mule, a horse, etc.

IN-LINE muzzleloaders were around before the percussion cap, and HUNDREDS of years before Pyrodex and Triple Seven!

Here is what has happened in some places in NJ.
Instead of letting hunters harvest deer some towns hired a company called White Buffalo to bring in sharpshooters to shoot deer over bait piles, even at night at a final cost of over $600 per deer shot!

Divide and conquer!

Go PETA!

edge.

I said similar I didn't say the same. There is a BIG difference!

If they want to use flintlock inlines I would say go ahead.

Part of the point of a primitive weapons season is to use a weapon similar to that used during that period with its inheirent shortcomings. To follow the evolution which is happening now in many states from pyrodex, to inlines, to sabots, to optics, to ranging reticles marked out to 100s of yards, to smokeless powder being loaded from the muzzle to ....... Eventually leading to more or less a modern single shot rifle with increased effectiveness and therefore a bigger impact on the game species. When it reaches this point I believe most game depts. say what is the difference and why should they be granted their own special season and concessions? The original intent of a primitive weapons season was never about the evolution into a modern rifle as it is becoming.

As to your commments about NJ and PETA both of these are overdramatization that don't bear out in this state.

 

[Pat S.]

Idealistic statement but very grossly naive to think that is even possible.BH

Not naive if the commission can be convinced to limit the technology as pertaining to the primitive weapons season.BH[/QUOTE]

Technology will never be arrested. BH

Obviously, the best you can do is put limitations on it and limit its affect and impact.

Says who? Once again, people are inserting their personal beliefs and desires what it should be based on "what you want" and trying to mandate how eveyone else should hunt. that is what this whole discussion is about. BH

I say. My comments were made to the IDFG commission for consideration just like YOURS would be if you care to enter them. Neither you nor the commissioners need to consider ANY of our comments. The mandate will come as the current regulations do from the commission upon consideration of the input on this topic.

Where is it written that everyone else has to hunt like "you" want them to??

Nowhere. Again these were my comments(asked for) to the IDFG commission as to where I believe the primitive weapons season should go in the future in Idaho.

ite simply it is nothing more than personal whims/desires and trying to mandate those on everyone else!
??

I guess you could say our current regulations now were put in place through the personal whims/desires of the IDFG commissions, past and present. Based in part by input through comments from people on both sides of this issue. Also taken into account is how these seasons will impact the game herds and maximize the days afield for hunters---a balancing act. Would you have no limitations or regulations, with anything goes, as long as it is preceived to get hunters in the field?

Primitive weapons in general, in the past, have had a lower impact on the game species, therefore leading to the dept. increasing opportunity to this segment of the hunting community, which should equate to more days afield for both veteran and novice hunters. When the technology improves to where the success rates go up and start to approach a modern weapon the dept. will cut back this opportunity I believe. If trying to increase the opportunity for more days afield for all hunters willing to hunt with a weapon that will lower their chance of success then I guess you can label me selfish.

No one stays 25 yrs old and can always use traditional archery or open sights.

BH

You're right. That's where I'm at now and why I either limit my shot with a muzzleloader to a range I can be effective or hunt with my scoped rifle in the general season.

 

[Ian M]

I believe many shooters, not sure if I would use the word hunters, miss the boat completely as to just why inlines are so popular. I have fast-twist 1-28 inch barrels for my Hawkens rifles that handle sabots, maxi's or whatever with better accuracy than the original slow twist bores. I can get the same velocity from the Hawkins rifles as I get from the inlines with similar charges, I just don't don't have the more moisture-proof 209 primers for ignition.

The big difference is the similarity of the inline to centerfire rifle handling - the stocks are designed for scope use. So much attention is placed on the shiny new techy looking rifles but they still load from the muzzle, other than the Savage they are all limited to whatever velocity three fifty grain pellets will produce, they are easier to load and clean and they sell like crazy in handy blister packs that get the guy out hunting if he can follow instructions.

I can put a decent scope on one of my fast twist Hawkens and shoot as far and accurately as with any inline. My bullets will travel a hell of an arc but they will all travel the same arc and not infrequently hold two or three minutes out to 300 yards. That is good enough to kill a deer. The reason I can hold that accuracy is not the rifle, it is the scope. My longest kill to date was 343 yards with a 325 grain bullet and only 100 grains of powder. I held way over the critter using indicator marks on the reticle and he died on the spot. I had practiced a lot and knew exactly what my drops were in 50 yard increments with the markings in that particular scope. The rifle was one of the cheapest Knights ever made, had a short barrel and I was not getting topend velocities, but it shot very accurately and I practiced in wind so I knew where those big bullets flew.

I believe the days of the buckskinners have been pushed aside and forgotten by the guy who slaps down a Visa at Walmart and walks out with a CVA in a blister pack and heads to the range. This is the guy they have to design and implement seasons for because he is buying the tags. He does not give a rat's butt about the traditions and history of black powder, he just wants a few extra days to enjoy his sport and make meat. When that guy gets to the range he will probably sight the rifle in with minimum problems because the manufacturers have made the process so simple. Then he will hunt with it and with any luck kill a deer within a hundred yards or so. Many deer are dumb enough to let us get that close, that is why we kill so many with slug guns and muzzleloaders. He will shoot accurately enough to kill because of the scope that came mounted on the that super high tech inline which cost 169 dollars ready to go out the door, complete with a 4x40 scope. We all know that aint really a muzzleloader, right! Just look at the stainless steel and plastic and camo and sabots and pellets and shotgun primers - old Daniel Boone would be rollin in his grave if he saw all that technology. I bet old Daniel would swap away his flinter in a heartbeat after looking through a modern scope.

I hope the game agencies keep things simple and design seasons to manage their wildlife, not placate special interest groups who want it their way and no other.

 

[edge]

SNIP

If you're going to have a late season for cows what's the difference what you kill em' with?

Now that gets me! Why kill does/cows after the rut? That, IMO is the stupidest thing that game agencies do! Protect the Big boys before the rut and shoot them after. Shoot the excess does/cows before the rut so that the best Bulls/Bucks breed and their genes get passed on.

IMO, IMO, IMO!!!


edge.

 

[silvertip-co]

...for the people of Idaho. A muzzle loader loads powder and ball from the front end. The on the man end you need a percussion cap or piece of flint to make a spark to set off the poweder and ball. Then it goes off

several seconds later.


Hope this helps.

 

[BountyHunter]

Not naive if the commission can be convinced to limit the technology as pertaining to the primitive weapons season.BH

[/quote]

This seems to be the key question though, "what is the purpose of the limitiations?"

We know that herd numbers are actually controlled by days of the season and quotas, not technology of the weapon.

So what rational purpose to benefit hunting or game management does these limitations perform? NOT ONE PERSON HAS GIVEN ANY REASON HERE.

We have heard a lot of "I do not like, I want eveyone to hunt like this, I demand everyone accept my definition of primitive and I do not care if it is actually correct or not." etc. It is all I, I , I, I, I and what I want for me.

Technological limitations only control hunters and absolutely nothing else!! There is no sound game management purpose here, only ideological preferences on how the other guy is supposed to hunt.

Does this mean anything goes, not really, But we should keep in mind what is ethical (lord knows you can have one heck of a discussion here) and how it is going to positively effect the sport of hunting in the near and long term. What is ethical is just like technology, it is constantly evolving.

I agree late season cow seasons might not be the best unless their is an over abundance. Many states are doing late season doe or cow harvest to reduce the overall numbers. That is another real thorny issue of shooting any female with some guys. You have guys that absolutely believe that is the worst thing that can be done, when in fact it really in some cases is sound herd management. Yet no matter how many times they are proven wrong, they will not believe.

It is good that we are discussing this and people are involved with their game depts wherever they are. Maybe this discussion will energize others to participate, become hunter ed instructors (PS get real great discounts on firearms, scopes etc from the mftrs by the way) and to bring and help new hunters into the sport.

BH