Idaho muzzleloader definition

[BountyHunter]

God **** PETA. If it weren't for them we could be herd shooting elk with howlitzers while they're calving. And who gives a crap what the Sarah Brady handgun site says, that place probably gets like 10 hits a day.

Not hardly, more like thousands daily and other sites as well. Plus herd shooting and marketing punt guns do not fit in any known management plans an more.

"Hunting is under attack in ways it has never been attacked before," said Kayne Robinson, the executive director of NRA General Operations. "Stifling regulations are overly complex and too often have nothing to do with game management

Todays Washington Times

If all the technology is allowed then I think it should be an extension of rifle season. Why should people with the money to buy a muzzleloader get special treatment/opportunities?

Lets be clear in exactly what that means. You are stating that are for doing away with all special hunts/methods that give more opportunities to hunters anyone other than hunters using "your personal approved/desired hunting season and method"? ie muzzleloader, archery, women only, youth, disabled hunts etc. You have proven my case about this being an ego driven issue and has zero to do with sound game management.

Why should people that live in that state get "special opportunities" and cheaper licenses particularily if I want to hunt on Federal land? Let's all buy over the counter at the same price.

The timing definately impacts my opinoin, but I still feel the same way. If muzzleloader is as accurate/powerful as rifle it has to be treated like one. A lot of these opinions sound like muzzleloader industry professionals, is anyone here employed in that industry or in gun sales?

We agree timing is key, not method for the management plan. Method is only an issue for "personal" reasons and nothing else. NOPE, not employed in the ML, Archery or gun sales. However, Hunter Ed istructor for quite a while. does that make me bad or biased?

BH

 

[dirtball]

Bountyhunter
My point exactly!!! This is why those who are concerned about the way YOUR state manages your wildlife NEED to be inolved in the process.

 

[Troutslayer]

Lets be clear in exactly what that means. You are stating that are for doing away with all special hunts/methods that give more opportunities to hunters anyone other than hunters using "your personal approved/desired hunting season and method"? ie muzzleloader, archery, women only, youth, disabled hunts etc. You have proven my case about this being an ego driven issue and has zero to do with sound game management.

If the intended purpose of a muzzleloader season is to give people who prefer more traditional methods a chance then I am for keeping it and keeping it seperate the same way archery season is seperate. Archery season is longer than rifle and at a time when elk are more vulnerable and easier to kill at close range. So yes, I do not approve a season that gives people unfair advantages over game, that will hurt populations and since I live in the state right next door and hunt the state line sometimes I do have some interest in keeping Idaho's elk populations high. This has nothing to do with ego, I really don't care if people are hunting them with atlatls or sharp sticks or the other end of the spectrum either. I just don't think that the state of Idaho needs to drive muzzleloader sales through regulations and I feel like that is what some of you want.

You compare muzzleloader hunters to the disabled. Do you really feel like that is a fair analogy? So hunting with a muzzleloader is like being disabled? If that is the case then maybe all muzzleloaders should have to hunt from a wheelchair. I'm for keeping the season as long as it is fair and not just some reason to buy another gun that is capable of killing an elk at 200 yards.

 

[WSmitty01]

Using the "DUCK" anology:
If it looks like a rifle:
If it shoots like a rifle (bolt, in-line breech):
If it has bullets (jacketed) like a rifle:
If it has sights (scopes) like a rifle:
If it has powder like a rifle (smokeless):
If it has the range of a rifle (or nearly):

Than by golly gee it must be a DUCK, no I mean a rifle, and should be in the same seasons as a rifle. There are a lot of states that have quotas on their seasons. I hunt in New Mexico (non-resident), and those permits are VERY LIMITED. So I would just prefer to compete for a license with another traditional hunter, they do have a traditional season also, which I will try to get, but not all states have a "traditional" season. I would be happy if they took all of the "fiirearms" seasons and combined them together and let us hunt with any legal firearm instead of splitting them all up. I only get 5 days of gun OR 7 days with muzzleloader/bow OR 7 days traditional muzzleloader in limited areas. I have to pick what weapon, at what time, I will hunt, in what area. And I only get 1 tag for all including archery. It's so frustrating to hunt there when you shoot bow, rifle, and muzzleloader!

 

[edge]

IMO, most States are interested in the MONEY, not the hunters!

They could care less if they sell 10,000 permits ( to kill 2, 000 animals) at 10 dollars or 1 permit for 100,000 to one person and he kills all 2,000 animals!

Generally the more Seasons the more money, and that is the lifeblood of government agencies!

edge.

 

[edge]

TOO MODERN ??

I often see folks complain about In-Line ML's, but most don't realise how old these things are. IMO, once they allow BP subs patented in the last 1/4 century they give up not allowing smokeless.

edge.

This was from a Sports Afield article from January 2002

COPYRIGHT 2002 Hearst Magazines, a Division of the Hearst Corporation

The classification of "modern in-line" muzzleloaders as "primitive weapons is an ongoing controversy. This is causing arguments among muzzleloader shooters and driving some state wildlife agencies to prohibit in-line muzzleloaders from primitive-weapons hunting because they seem "too modern." In-line muzzleloaders, however, predate the percussion cap. Several existing examples, dating from the mid-1700s, are virtually identical to modern in-lines except they feature flintlock ignition.

As early as the 1500s, wheel locks and flintlocks were encased inside compartments built in to some guns to protect the priming powder. By the mid-1700s, this had evolved into prototypical in-line lock systems using cylindrical bolts, coil springs, and a variety of cocking levers and triggers, operationally identical to modern in-line muzzleloaders. A few percussion in-lines were built in the early 1800s, but eventually the simple and inexpensive side-hammer percussion lock snuffed out the costly, antiquarian in-line muzzleloaders that now seem so far ahead of their time.

Ironically, weather-protected locks and positive straight-line ignition, major advantages of modern in-line muzzleloaders, are key issues in the current "too modern" controvert.


COPYRIGHT 2002 Hearst Magazines, a Division of the Hearst Corporation

 

[NYLES]

Good read! alot of points made.

Ill ask this question, Who cares what you take the game with? As long as the fine game and fish people know how many to take from a heard and have dreamed some great mathmatical way to figure it up. GOOD LUCK!

Another thing, how many deer you think are NOT figured into the figure of how many were killed in any state? You think lil jhonny's buck at Gpa's got reported? Bet not! Or the one your nieghbors daughter totaled her new car out on? NA!

I feel sorry for some state laws Ive heard on this site, Where is it? Wy or MT a kid must be 12 years old before he/she can hunt big game, but OK to shoot varmits with a HP rifle! What kinda idiot came up with that one.(HE IS STILL INVITED DOWN HERE BY THE WAY, Yea, Dad you know who he is!)


Only thing I wish MS would do is move the seasons back about a month.

I wont take any sides on this one because I have hunted with just about everything thats legal...but will say alot of rules in various states are just plain stupid!

 

[BountyHunter]

Archery season is longer than rifle and at a time when elk are more vulnerable and easier to kill at close range.

I think most archers would disagree that elk are unfairly or ethically vulnerable and that they have an unfair advantage. Now how does archery hunting hurt the population if the quota for the area is lets say 100 tags with the anticipation of archery hunters taking 15 and that is what they take? Another gross misconception about another method not substantiated in a management plan, but a real perceived issue with that "other hunter is taking my elk" so lets get rid of him and his hunting method.

So yes, I do not approve a season that gives people unfair advantages over game, that will hurt populations

Well if we are to follow that logic, no one should be able to use a rifle with scope at anytime then. There is no disputing that it offers too much of an advantage. Only allowed hunting method is self bow and flint heads! Hmmm maybe that is too much of an advantage also. Someone tell me how an elk at 300 yards against a 300 Win Mag is at a more advantagous position than an elk against a bowhunter who must get them under 50 yards or a muzzleloader capable of only 200 yds shots? That is basically what was said when you look at it realistically. This is have to hear!

Plus management plans are based on the total number killed not how killed. Plans take into consideration amounts killed in each season and quotas are set, time limits established to compensate and manage the total population. So how does the manner they die hurt the population? Total BS arguement that is used to cloud the real issue.

You compare muzzleloader hunters to the disabled. Do you really feel like that is a fair analogy? So hunting with a muzzleloader is like being disabled?

No you said

Why should people with the money to buy a muzzleloader get special treatment/opportunities?

Disabled hunts are another special treatment/opportunitiy hunts that are allowed and sometimes they can even shoot from a vehicle.

We have all kinds of special treatment and special opportunities in hunting programs, some require money for muzzleloaders and bows etc and you said are against them. I just named a few of the more popular ones. So yes, it is a fair analogy and I understand you now do not like how looks, but those are your words, not mine.

It does not take a rocket scientest to read between the lines with people talking about "they do not like to compete with others" "this gives some other hunter an advantage against me" etc, blah blah etc.

Bottom line is that everyone is basically talking about non-sensical regs in reality do nothing but give them their desired hunting method/time/low price etc, and yet limits others. This is not legitimate game management so stop trying to hide under that umbrella.

Method has zero to to with management so stop trying to sugarcoat it. Method is only about personal whims.

It is nothing more than about me getting "my elk/deer vs legitimate management interests", and they are trying to use all the BS arguements to sugar coat it.

Sorry guys, but that is the facts and no way to twist it any other way.

BH

 

[Troutslayer]

I think most archers would disagree that elk are unfairly or ethically vulnerable and that they have an unfair advantage.

I totally agree with you but put a gun in their hands and some would probably feel that it lacked challenge.

If you think hunting during rifle season with a scope offers an unfair advantage then you have not hunted elk. If you have ever bowhunted elk and thought, man, I could have shot five bulls today if I could only shoot 100 yards, you would also understand. If you think that management doesn't consider sporting opportunities then I feel sorry for you BountyHunter. It sounds to me like you think that fish and game should just go out and shoot them from a helicopter to save us all the trouble of doing the job for them? After reading this thread I'm glad that MT doesn't have a muzzleloader season and I hope we keep it that way.

 

[jwp475]

What does fair have to do with the taking of animal domestic or wild? It is about putting the meat in the frezer and a trophy on the wall. It is definately not a Chess match and fair is a meaningless arguement.... Manegement of game is about allowing the proper amount of animals to live on a set amount of realastate, the manner in which they are taken out is a moot point..

 

[BountyHunter]

If you think that management doesn't consider sporting opportunities then I feel sorry for you BountyHunter. It sounds to me like you think that fish and game should just go out and shoot them from a helicopter to save us all the trouble of doing the job for them?

Not at all, It is just that the argument that method ties into the management plan is bogus. If someone considers hunting with an inline sporting and you do not, what makes you right? Your perception? Sporting opportunities is not part of the management plan for numbers harvested though. It is part of the plan for encouraging more hunters, which is needed for the game depts to survive.

Less and less hunters each year and yet selfish or ego driven hunters want to restrict ways for other hunters to hunt. Where is the long term logic in that?

No hunters equals no game depts!! Even they recognize that, but they have to fight the traditionalists and "I don't want anyone else to shoot my deer/elk crowd, so lets make it as difficult as possible for the other guy." As a hunter ed instructor who works with the Game Dept, I see that arguement all the time and watch them have to fight crazy rules that come up.

Like I said I have used round ball, inlines, fowlers with patch ball, compound, recurve, longbow and self bows with flint arrows, revolvers, contenders and XP-100s. All were sporting to me and the circumstances. However I do not demand that everyone else adopt my methods in order to hunt. That is the key difference here.

I totally agree with you but put a gun in their hands and some would probably feel that it lacked challenge.

Why is that? Do you suppose that those archers might be the better hunters to begin with and are now progressing thru the hunting phases (got to kill something, got to limit out, method, trophy and sporting). I bow hunt hard for two weeks every year for trophy MO whitetails and yet I enjoy the hunt and IF I get a good buck OK, if not I go home enjoying the hunt with a couple friends and family. I still kill a couple does for meat and to manage the herd on our properties. This year I watched a 160+ class 9 point on three different evenings at 80-120 yards, not quite bow range. Dead meat with a rifle or pistol, but I still enjoyed the hunt and working ways to get closer to him. Next year look out.

It is all about giving as many hunters as possible a sporting opportunity to hunt, not just the limited exalted tradionalists. I watched this argument go crazy thru the archery community years ago.

I shot traditional for a long time for long bow and recurves, however we were called modern equipment if we shot aluminum or carbon arrows or screw in points. the "real" traditional guys argued that you had to use self arrows with bone or flint tips to be traditional. To them, modern arrows and bows should hunt in the gun season.

Where does the silliness end with rules that have zero to do with the total numbers harvested but only limit the opportunities to hunters?

BH

 

[waddwadd]

I didn't ever think that this topic would be so popular. great points made by all involved. Some I agree with some I dont. Free speach is great isn't it. I do know that 3 nonresidents that did not buy licenses this year because of the regulation. Thats approx. $3000.00 that the state lost out on. When that was mentioned to a fish and game officer he really didn't have much to say. shortly thereafter the game commission came out with the decision to put the regulation up for discussion once again which it had done the year before. My guess is its either the money or there is enough inline shooters in Idaho to make some noise. Buffalobob made a good comment on the vision problem My hunting partner suffers from farsightness and has trouble seeing his open sights they are either out of focus or if he uses his glasses he cant see the animal. It would be nice if they legalized a 0 power scope for the people with this problem. I do think that we have to unify in our fight against the antihunting groups or they will win.
Wade

 

[Nomad]

Having hunted Idaho for over 30 years seeing what the Idaho fish and game has done to cause more problems to its hunters bird and fur...
The closing of the bird farm in Jerome Idaho and go to buying private birds
at 10 plus dollars a bird to release on wild life manage areas and you can hunt with a 21.50 stamp now the general hunters buy these birds...
The last major increase in hunting license 72 percent went to fisheries
out of the increase what about wild life management feed stations for the
winter been closing them down Lick ck and skunk ck taken out of service
and foceing the animals to starve nothing done
Went to the govenor and showed the pictures of all the died aimals....
a real joke.
Now muzzle loaders were allowed and several people hunted late season
and the they outlawed the en-line to general hunt and short range weapon
which is also semiauto shot gun with as many rounds as you can load in it
Yes the fish and game of Idaho are managing the hunter and lesss with the game..
The sagehen is a good example of just that, years past there were thousands in the south central area of Idaho. Now you really have to look for them.
People in Idaho spent thousands on in-line to hunt with in muzzle loading
seasons... The Idea to split the seasons for side hammer one week and in-line the next a great idea, in IDFG you find NO common sense in this area.

 

[Pat S.]

This is a portion of the comments I submitted to IDFG:

You shouldn't have changed the rules this fall to allow their use in a short-range season or made changes to the muzzleloader, archery, or general season equipment. You have lost the original intent of what a muzzleloader season was really about and that was: allowing a season and the opportunity where a person could use a primitive type rifle (a sidelock of percussion or flint) for the purpose of experiencing a hunt similar to what our forefathers would have experienced 150+ years ago; all while taking into consideration the short range limitations of these weapons and their impact on game herds. You should have drawn a line in the sand years ago but you didn't. Your interim changes have only made matters worse and show that the commission lacks the backbone to make tough decisions when it comes to managing the "people" aspect of game management. You have "caved" to a vocal minority of those who want to use maximized technology to increase their success rate while getting away from the original intent of a muzzleloader season. Go back to the old rules and freeze them in time for future generations.
For those wanting to use modern technology, let them hunt during the general season. Using 200 to 300 yd. muzzleloaders violates the intent of what a muzzleloader season is really about.

Also on another note: What purpose does a lighted reticle serve on a rifle during the general season, other then to shoot too early or too late in the day? Well before or beyond legal shooting light I might add.

Bottom line: You people need to revisit your rules on archery, muzzleloader, and rifle season. Rules for primitive weapons need to be set in stone and technology arrested. As far as I'm concerned what other states do is their business but Idaho shouldn't follow the whims of the firearms or archery industries or the latest gadget or craze on the "Outdoor Channel".

Pat