I Hate Hammer Bullets!

[RockyMtnMT]

Steve,
I've been shooting Barnes sense the Barnes X. I now using the TTSX. Until just recently I've never lost a deer with Barnes. It put him on the ground just like every other shot. But that one got up and got outta there, never to be found.
165gr ttsx from a 300WM.
I can't say it was the bullet that's at fault. I'm sure I just missed the spot.
Convince me why I should use your bullet, other than Barnes are in short supply.

I think the big diff you would see from our bullet is the Shock that takes place from the rapid expansion and the nose petals shedding. The restrained shank generally passes through making sure you get to the far lung. The shed petals do their own damage and generally exit as well. If the impact is on the edge of the vitals the shed petals can be the diff between recovered and not.

 

[mbse20]

The speed is key for any hunting bullet to do what it is spose to do. Some food coloring in the cutting oil for different color vapor trail would be cool.

 

[willfrye027]

Steve,
I've been shooting Barnes sense the Barnes X. I now using the TTSX. Until just recently I've never lost a deer with Barnes. It put him on the ground just like every other shot. But that one got up and got outta there, never to be found.
165gr ttsx from a 300WM.
I can't say it was the bullet that's at fault. I'm sure I just missed the spot.
Convince me why I should use your bullet, other than Barnes are in short supply.

I'm not Steve but I've used Barnes a fair amount and have switched over to hammers. Compared to Barnes I like hammers for their availability, lots of choices in each caliber, easier to find a good load, and the loads I find tend to be faster fps. On game performance both will put down game with a well placed shot. I think hammers have more destructive terminal performance and are more forgiving with lower velocity hits and put them down quicker with double lung or liver hits. Shoot what you want, hammers are an excellent choice.

 

[Bob Wright]

I think every bullet construction falls into brackets of performance at distance/speed. Then the big variable of the "nut behind the trigger".
There is no magic bullet. Everyone has an opinion. Not every opinion has test data to back it up. Every animal dies on its own terms if some little thing goes wrong from the above ^^^
I started with corelock's years before "longrange" was a word.
There is a dizzying amount of component choices. Tons of bias to go with it, maybe based on one hunt.
You're not going to win the "info war" based on bias.
Steve, you should bracket performance on proof that you currently have and supplied by photos, data and challenging counter arguments by other social media.
I haven't been able to take an animal due to limited opportunities. I have Hammers to test other than paper.
I guess you're going to have to earn more respect. Somehow, some way.
Berger didn't start with hunting ammo, right? Win on Sunday, sell on Monday is the theme.
Show your success from hunts or wins.
I'm going to make them the solid of choice at this point. I'll try others as well. It's what we do, but at the cost, it's a critical decision going forward. I have to prove it to myself, but I have the info I need to push forward with Hammer, quietly, and real world experience. Empirical data for myself. Whether anyone believes me or others is all you have at this point. How does Hammer compile convincing empirical data and challenge the naysayers?

 

[yorke-1]

I'll chime in here with just a few points. First off Steve, you know my stance on your products and I'd like to believe that you know that I respect what you and Brian have done. I wear the same Hammer Bullets hat you sent me more than 5 years ago, almost daily when I'm out and about. I like that hat so much, I'm wearing it in 75% of the pictures of me that are out there. But... I've shot a pretty wide variety of what you offer ranging from 6mm up through .458 and they haven't all been what I hoped for. I've had a few that didn't work out how I would have liked, but you've always supported your products.

The BC thing comes up a lot, but I believe that's largely overhyped. I've personally had the same bullet (260gr HH) have different BCs from one batch to the next. This was comparing an early LOT to a more recent batch though, so I didn't think much of it and the variation wasn't a big deal. High BC numbers sell bullets, right now, so that's just an easy criticism to make.

I've voiced my thoughts on erratic penetration characteristics under some circumstances before, and you may remember how that went. No product is perfect, and you know that. That's why you're always looking to improve your designs. I'm confident that when used under ideal conditions (velocity, twist, stability, etc.) the bullets perform as intended. As your customer base expands though, more people will have less than optimal or negative results because they won't meet the "Goldilocks" conditions to get ideal results. I still believe that the asymmetrical meplat on expanded bullets (with moderate velocity impacts) is going to cause unpredictable penetration. I've seen this with enough consistency to see a predictable pattern.

The biggest issue I have with Hammer Bullets isn't actually with Hammer Bullets as a company or with their products, it's with the "fan" base. I advocate for your product every time somebody asks me for advice about a hunting bullet. I do recognize that there are a lot of other products out there which work incredibly well though. Hammer bullets are quickly becoming the new 6.5 Creedmoor. Just like the 6.5 Creedmoor, your bullets are a quality product capable of standing on their own merits, but they don't work miracles or defy physics. And just like the Creedmoor, that overwhelming and, at times, cult-like advocacy is creating a backlash. If somebody asks a question regarding a Berger bullet, there will be a response to switch to a Hammer within the first 10 posts. To the credit of Hammer Bullets and the company's official representatives (you, Brian, and Ed) I don't see you guys personally being a part of that beyond what would be expected from the representatives of a company. I think what you're perceiving as hate, is geared more towards your overzealous, albeit well-intentioned, advocates. I didn't think it was possible, but I'm pretty sure that Hammer users are now more annoying than both Creedmoor shooters and anyone who shoots one of the Sherman wildcats! LOL

With all of that said, you know I love your product. I really don't think there's that much hate for your products, but there is a lot of frustration and fatigue when it comes to the non-stop, 24-hour cycle of Hammer commentary coming from the unofficial Hammer "team".

Andrew

 

[gohring3006]

I hate that you haven't developed a cup and core high bc match bullet.

 

[xsn10s]

I hate that you haven't developed a cup and core high bc match bullet.

I can understand your want for this but i don't see that as a good course of action at this point for their company. That would increase their tooling and production costs not to mention takes considerable effort for the learning curve. It's a completely different skill-set that would require knowledge of cutting/ forming dies in succession to form bullets. At this point if they wanted to increase production they could even send their program to another trusted (confidential, non disclosure waiver/ agreement) company or machine shop and have more bullets produced. They could produce mono match bullets but again I don't see the point at this juncture. Reason being is they have a niche following, and as one member pointed out their bullets work in an operating range that fits the majority of hunters. IMO the time and money would be better focused on establishing baseline BC's and maybe showing terminal results. Hunter are reporting satisfaction with the terminal results so reinforced that. An honest baseline BC will help customers get on target quicker so saves more bullets for hunts.

 

[codyadams]

I can understand your want for this but i don't see that as a good course of action at this point for their company. That would increase their tooling and production costs not to mention takes considerable effort for the learning curve. It's a completely different skill-set that would require knowledge of cutting/ forming dies in succession to form bullets. At this point if they wanted to increase production they could even send their program to another trusted (confidential, non disclosure waiver/ agreement) company or machine shop and have more bullets produced. They could produce mono match bullets but again I don't see the point at this juncture. Reason being is they have a niche following, and as one member pointed out their bullets work in an operating range that fits the majority of hunters. IMO the time and money would be better focused on establishing baseline BC's and maybe showing terminal results. Hunter are reporting satisfaction with the terminal results so reinforced that. An honest baseline BC will help customers get on target quicker so saves more bullets for hunts.

I could be off.....but I think he meant it in jest? Ha ha

 

[xsn10s]

As far as hating Hammer Bullets I for one do not. I observe the reports to keep the info in the "toolbox" for future reference. As I have done with most things that are of my interest. The drama, false information, and zealots with negative attacks on others I can do without. I and I'm sure everyone else these days has enough to deal with.

 

[xsn10s]

I could be off.....but I think he meant it in jest? Ha ha

LMAO maybe so Cody. It's been rough lately and I stil haven't had my pot of coffee yet brother. Be safe.

 

[codyadams]

LMAO maybe so Cody. It's been rough lately and I stil haven't had my pot of coffee yet brother. Be safe.

I am at the end of a long shift, and my top knot is not working too well at this point either ha ha. I think my problem is too much coffee at this point! Ha ha, take care.

 

[xsn10s]

I am at the end of a long shift, and my top knot is not working too well at this point either ha ha. I think my problem is too much coffee at this point! Ha ha, take care.

Ahh the balance between caffeine and workload. First responders have been over worked and underappreciated the past two years IMO. Life would be sooooo much easier if we gave up this nonsense. Maybe selloff everything and move into condos, drive Prius's, wear birkinstocks, and stick a coexist sticker.

 

[338 dude]

There seems to be need for those who hate Hammer Bullets to have a place to vent. So, I decided it would be a good idea to make a place for that to happen. There is no need to hold back here. Let it out. Nobody has to be sly in starting threads that are anti Hammers by saying it is about more choices. Just let it out here. This is a safe place to do it. It is pretty evident that most who hate Hammer Bullets have not used them but have formed a hatred just the same. Let us know how you got this hatred. We don't learn anything about our bullets this way, but we might learn something about marketing. If there are those that hate Hammer Bullets that have used them, please post here. We do learn from these instances and will use that information to get better.

I have one rule for this thread. I do not want any satisfied Hammer users to post on this thread. I don't want anyone to stick up for Hammer Bullets. I am willing to take what comes here and I will monitor the thread and I will handle any defense needed. I don't want this to turn into one side vs the other and have the thread shut down due to infighting.

Let's go.

I don't hate hammer bullets but have never use them due to a lower BC I typically want higher bc's

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I'll chime in here with just a few points. First off Steve, you know my stance on your products and I'd like to believe that you know that I respect what you and Brian have done. I wear the same Hammer Bullets hat you sent me more than 5 years ago, almost daily when I'm out and about. I like that hat so much, I'm wearing it in 75% of the pictures of me that are out there. But... I've shot a pretty wide variety of what you offer ranging from 6mm up through .458 and they haven't all been what I hoped for. I've had a few that didn't work out how I would have liked, but you've always supported your products.

The BC thing comes up a lot, but I believe that's largely overhyped. I've personally had the same bullet (260gr HH) have different BCs from one batch to the next. This was comparing an early LOT to a more recent batch though, so I didn't think much of it and the variation wasn't a big deal. High BC numbers sell bullets, right now, so that's just an easy criticism to make.

I've voiced my thoughts on erratic penetration characteristics under some circumstances before, and you may remember how that went. No product is perfect, and you know that. That's why you're always looking to improve your designs. I'm confident that when used under ideal conditions (velocity, twist, stability, etc.) the bullets perform as intended. As your customer base expands though, more people will have less than optimal or negative results because they won't meet the "Goldilocks" conditions to get ideal results. I still believe that the asymmetrical meplat on expanded bullets (with moderate velocity impacts) is going to cause unpredictable penetration. I've seen this with enough consistency to see a predictable pattern.

The biggest issue I have with Hammer Bullets isn't actually with Hammer Bullets as a company or with their products, it's with the "fan" base. I advocate for your product every time somebody asks me for advice about a hunting bullet. I do recognize that there are a lot of other products out there which work incredibly well though. Hammer bullets are quickly becoming the new 6.5 Creedmoor. Just like the 6.5 Creedmoor, your bullets are a quality product capable of standing on their own merits, but they don't work miracles or defy physics. And just like the Creedmoor, that overwhelming and, at times, cult-like advocacy is creating a backlash. If somebody asks a question regarding a Berger bullet, there will be a response to switch to a Hammer within the first 10 posts. To the credit of Hammer Bullets and the company's official representatives (you, Brian, and Ed) I don't see you guys personally being a part of that beyond what would be expected from the representatives of a company. I think what you're perceiving as hate, is geared more towards your overzealous, albeit well-intentioned, advocates. I didn't think it was possible, but I'm pretty sure that Hammer users are now more annoying than both Creedmoor shooters and anyone who shoots one of the Sherman wildcats! LOL

With all of that said, you know I love your product. I really don't think there's that much hate for your products, but there is a lot of frustration and fatigue when it comes to the non-stop, 24-hour cycle of Hammer commentary coming from the unofficial Hammer "team".

Andrew

Hey Andrew,

Your post made me laugh. I guess I'll take the comparison of our customers to Creed fans and Sherman fans. I'll leave it at that for obvious reasons.

I have always called you an equal opportunity bullet destroyer. We have sent you bullets to destroy and never asked you to hold back in your findings. Yes you have been able to see some difference from lots of raw material over the years. We have seen these differences as well. We lean on the mill that produces our copper to make our copper in a specific way to the exact specs of previous lots of copper. Someday I want to see how it is made. I have a feeling what we are asking them to do is a very tall order. The fact that our supplier is willing to bend their process for us sets them aside from pretty much all the others. No other mill will even try to hold the tolerances that we require. You have seen the diff in your impact testing. Low velocity is where the rubber hits the road. The "worst" lot of copper in our current alloy that we have used, still works better than any other copper that we have tried. Striving for perfect makes for disappointment. Perfect is a tall order. It is an anxious day every time half a million dollars in copper is delivered. Everything we strive to do rides on that copper.

I think the copper supplier thinks I am a high maintenance weirdo.