How nonsense becomes fact.

[rsmithsr]

plain and simple
YOU ARE WRONG.
and now on ignore...you earned it !

The indicator is reliable if it's measured. How it looks and feels is unreliable.

If you can't measure it, making stuff up doesn't count.

 

[antelopedundee]

Nonsense will never become a fact; it just comes to be believable.

BTW is a primer flattened and bolt lift hard after firing a proof load? How much hotter are proof loads over book value?

Most Hodgdon data I've looked at tops out below 63,000 psi. What's the PSI rating of a proof load?

 

[AlphaDogs]

"blue pills" were 80 K copper crusher back in the day.

 

[cohunt]

A lot of the SAAMI pressure levels have zero relationship to modern firearms, an extreme example would be the 45-70 being spec'ed to keep a trap door from launching, drop a 45-70 in to a mauser 98 and your experiencing a whole new level of power since you can let the brass be the week point. Yep WAY over SAAMI, absolutely safe, WAY over book velocities, absolutely safe. SAAMI is there to help a manufacture stay within a lawsuit proof range of specs and to have a common language to work within, there is little relevance to the individual rifle and it's capability.

We seem to be accepting the fallacy the Pressure equals Velocity which is utter garbage, you can not look at a chronograph, look in a book at the tested pressure and velocity and think your at the same pressure. If you've ever ran a Pressure Trace on a barrel and ran multiple powders you'll quickly learn you can change TIME and TIMING to get more or less velocity at the same pressures. AREA UNDER the CURVE is what give us velocity which we can manipulate in a couple ways!! The things you can do if you duplex a load, that's changing the TIME and TIMING not the pressure but you get more velocity, if we went by only velocity we'd only have like a dozen powders but no, we can use different powder formulas to change the time!

"Area under the curve", you know "H" ?

 

[DJ Fergus]

I was reading up on 30-06 AI, and came across an article on Shootingtimes.com , 30-06 AI reloads .

In there the writer describes his journey to producing reloads, and ends with

"... I used the usual pressure indicators of primer appearance and bolt lift to estimate how safe the "hotter" handload recipes were ..."

Usual since when, and by whom.

There is an example of a respected publication spouting often repeated nonsense, that people who don't know better about will assume is the right way to find the limit on hot handloads.

Imagine - "I can't understand why, I added one grain of powder at a time, and the bolt lifted easily each time till everything suddenly blew up ."

There is a way to find the optimum load for your rifle, that could improve on factory data, but that is not it. He measured velocity, but was comparing it to nothing known. The point of recording velocity is to check it against the known limit.

The writer ends with "Coincidentally, the Speer Reloading Manual #4 (circa 1960) includes recipes for the .30-06 AI, and the maximum velocity listed exactly matches my results."

So, by sheer dumb luck, the "feel" and the "look" gave the matching result to a measured proof barrel. At least he's lucky.

This is an example of when nonsense is repeated often enough, it becomes generally accepted fact. You cannot determine pressure change by looking at or feeling metal. It requires physical measurement.

The correct approach is to first find reputable data, and work up the load. If there is no data, there is software nowdays to estimate for you. But not to keep adding powder while checking how the primer looks and how the bolt feels.

I have some very old manuals. Some of the powders listed in them are now older powders, like imr4350. The loads they list are actually pretty darn hot for that power. More recent manuals are much more conservative for imr4350. I know that many people rule velocity as the standard for max load. While that is a very good indicator I do not believe it is infalable. Max could be a fair amount slower or faster all based on the physical state of the bore, headspace, freebore, virgin or fired brass, full size or neck sized , how muchover sized the chamber was for the fired brass if neck sizing only etc.... But yes, based on velocity, it may very well be the safer bet. Software probably being the most useful of all. Its worth watching for traditional signs also while working up.

 

[fiftybmg]

BTW is a primer flattened and bolt lift hard after firing a proof load? How much hotter are proof loads over book value?

Most Hodgdon data I've looked at tops out below 63,000 psi. What's the PSI rating of a proof load?

You're mentioning proof loads and psi.

The writer of the article I refer to mentions neither and claims to use a method that ignores both.

 

[fiftybmg]

I have some very old manuals. Some of the powders listed in them are now older powders, like imr4350. The loads they list are actually pretty darn hot for that power. More recent manuals are much more conservative for imr4350. I know that many people rule velocity as the standard for max load. While that is a very good indicator I do not believe it is infalable. Max could be a fair amount slower or faster all based on the physical state of the bore, headspace, freebore, virgin or fired brass, full size or neck sized , how muchover sized the chamber was for the fired brass if neck sizing only etc.... But yes, based on velocity, it may very well be the safer bet. Software probably being the most useful of all. Its worth watching for traditional signs also while working up.

The writer of the article uses a method that does not refer to any manual, and ignores all the parameters you mention.

 

[fiftybmg]

plain and simple YOU ARE WRONG.

Prove it.

Prove that the optical inspection method is a reliable indicator of pressure.

Prove that load development on an unknown cartridge is done without data, and purely by feel.

Prove it by putting together a picture chart or something. So much indentation is X psi, etc.

Also catalog your "feel" of the bolt. A little feel like this means such, and little feel like that means more such.

And while you're at it, draw up a chart for gut feel. How your gut feels based on what you're looking at.

 

[antelopedundee]

You're mentioning proof loads and psi.

The writer of the article I refer to mentions neither and claims to use a method that ignores both.

I was just asking the question regardless of what the article said or didn't say. If primer flatness can be taken as an indication of pressure do proof loads flatten primers?

 

[tony d willIiams]

Good post
Now if everyone will listen.

I work on many rifles that the owners used this philosophy and think the load has to be as hot as possible. SAAMI sets the pressure standard using many factors and if used, there isn't normally any problems as long as the chamber hasn't been altered. These pressures are also normally used in the loading manuals to get the velocity, so pressures will stay in the design limits.

Pressure is not just some arbitrary number It is derived at for many reason and should be followed. Many of the older cartridges used much lower pressures because of design factors of the rifles, components, and simply the dependability of the system.

With pressures getting higher and higher in the New cartridges, Liberties are being taken with many older cartridges and the results are showing more and more on all of the equipment. Maybe It is to easy to follow the instructions on the loading manual and have a cartridge perform like it is supposed to.

Velocity is one of the best ways to reach near max loads. If the velocity is not what you wanted, you may have picked the wrong cartridge for the caliber. My advice to all is follow the SAMMI recommended pressure and stay just below it and you will have many years of fun shooting and not hurt your rifle or the components, the other option is to visit your Gun smith often for problems or repairs.

It is actually very simple, When/if you start seeing ejector marks or and shinny places on the case head, or smashed primers, you have gone to far and should immediately back off on you load By one grain if no other changes are made. Each rifle is different and reading the brass although used frequently should be avoided because it is just an interpretation and not very accurate .

Common sense alone should tell a reloader where the limit is for any cartridge and we should expect no more from it. Joseph Goebbels (Propaganda Minister for Hitler) said (If you tell something that is wrong enough times, It becomes right).

Very good advice Fifty.

J E CUSTOM

With different metals being used in primers, harder, softer brass, annealed not annealed, OAL, the pressure signs on the cartridge could be misleading. As stated above the reloading manuals have been produced and the data is verified by equipment I cannot hope to own.
A short barrel, long barrel, different twist, many things will take a safe cartridge that works well in my rifle and will cause irreparable damage in yours.
I like high speed, high pressure, but if I cannot always hit my point of aim, then I am not reloading or choosing my rifle, reloading components properly. I also like my equipment to last for many rounds, not wear out in a flash.

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

Might be a good time to put this one to bed, Gentlemen.

 

[Leave me alone]

I was reading up on 30-06 AI, and came across an article on Shootingtimes.com , 30-06 AI reloads .

In there the writer describes his journey to producing reloads, and ends with

"... I used the usual pressure indicators of primer appearance and bolt lift to estimate how safe the "hotter" handload recipes were ..."

Usual since when, and by whom.

There is an example of a respected publication spouting often repeated nonsense, that people who don't know better about will assume is the right way to find the limit on hot handloads.

Imagine - "I can't understand why, I added one grain of powder at a time, and the bolt lifted easily each time till everything suddenly blew up ."

There is a way to find the optimum load for your rifle, that could improve on factory data, but that is not it. He measured velocity, but was comparing it to nothing known. The point of recording velocity is to check it against the known limit.

The writer ends with "Coincidentally, the Speer Reloading Manual #4 (circa 1960) includes recipes for the .30-06 AI, and the maximum velocity listed exactly matches my results."

So, by sheer dumb luck, the "feel" and the "look" gave the matching result to a measured proof barrel. At least he's lucky.

This is an example of when nonsense is repeated often enough, it becomes generally accepted fact. You cannot determine pressure change by looking at or feeling metal. It requires physical measurement.

The correct approach is to first find reputable data, and work up the load. If there is no data, there is software nowdays to estimate for you. But not to keep adding powder while checking how the primer looks and how the bolt feels.

Worked at a shooting range one summer, lots and lots of that there every day got sick of it

 

[milo-2]

Might be a good time to put this one to bed, Gentlemen.

 

[codyadams]

Prove it.

Prove that the optical inspection method is a reliable indicator of pressure.

Well Hodgdon, the people that make gun powder, pressure test their data, and put out reloading manuals, told me that it is in their reloading manuals, so.....

No, you can't look at a case and feel bolt lift and say "that 22-250 is at 68,935 psi, that is too hot". To think that is what is being said is simply argumentative, and I haven't once seen someone say that. Though if I did, I would tell them it isn't possible to accurately say that.

However, you can look at a case that has a rounded primer, no cratering, no ejector mark or wipe, the bolt lifted easy, and has been loaded 8 times with the same load and primer pockets feel the same, measure case expansion (all the things that reloading manuals tell you to do....) and say that it is within an acceptable pressure range for a modern bolt rifle and this particular set of components. On the other end, you can also look at a cratered, flattened primer, ejector swipe, heavy bolt lift and significant head expansion and without hesitation say there is far too much pressure. No, you can't put a number on any of it, not that the numbers matter anyway. The case is the weak point, and the case WILL fail long before any modern rifle does. Even the toughest Lapua or ADG or Peterson brass will show signs of failure at a pressure range that is still well below the yield strength of the action it is fired in. BIGNGREEN already hit the nail on the head, but his responses were mostly ignored.

You say look at pressure data in existance- for one, pressure tested data for all the wildcats aren't out there, period. If someone says "this is close, here you go" then they aren't giving exact pressure tested data, you are still left to estimate. Simply changing bullet profiles, even if they are the same weight, or barrels, or changing the lot of powder can and will change pressure. What if you have a tight bore? You will reach pressure long before you reach a book listed safe velocity. Unless you have pressure tested data with the EXACT same LOT of brass, powder, primer, bullet, and the exact same barrel that the pressure test data was fired in, then you need to know how to read pressure signs, and attribute them to being too hot of a load. Doesn't matter squat if the books say it is safe, it may or may not be. The books are a guide, not gospel, they say that themselves.

Reading pressure from looking at a case is basic reloading knowledge, even for a brand new reloader, and is neccessary for saftey, and is also information that has been put out IN RELOADING MANUALS. The very books you are saying to follow are the ones that teach it. It doesn't take a genius to know that, for example, with a 48.5 grain load, the bolt lifted like it would have with an empty chamber, and showed no other signs. The next higher charge of 49.0 grains, there was "any" more resistence, light primer crater, and faint, barely visible ejector mark. That indicates OVER pressure, and tells you where max - 48.5, or just over max - 49.0, is in these specific components, and to stay below that to give yourself a saftey margin.

I am by no means condoning reloading up till you see pressure signs and living within a couple tenths of your pressure signs. While it likely won't blow up your gun unless something dramatic happens, it will give excessive wear on the rifle and components, and can easily lock up a gun, pierce a primer, or cause other issues with something as simple as a hot chamber, and is not advised. There is more detail on this kind of stuff and a fair saftey margin in reloading manuals.

What I am saying, is that pressure signs are in FACT necessary knowledge for reloaders, that comes from Hodgdon, Nosler, Speer, Lyman and many other manuals that I have read (and should be read and used as a guide by any reloader), and while it may differ from information given on the internet in certain forum threads, that is really ok. I will trust the people that make the components I'm using.