How i hate shooting 100yds?

[WildRose]

How far are you shooting? even if I have a gun that groups with cold bore at 100 yards I have NEVER seen a gun (AND YOU WOULD BE HARD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO'S HAD MORE THAN ME) That @ 1000 + will hit the same clean as fouled. sometimes it's only 1/2 MOA low but it's always out a little.

No rifle shoots the same clean as it does with a few foulders through it. Everytime you change the conditions in the round, chamber, or bore it has an effect on accuracy.

Leaving a barrel fouled today is not a problem as we're no longer using corrosive powders or primers.

As a rule once I have thoroughly cleaned a rifle I'll put three quick foulers through it before I even attempt to check zero.

Once I'm re zeroed I put it up. At the very most I'll put a few drops of oil down the pile and then swab it out dry.

Of course I won't shoot anything any more that's not a stainless barrel and I'm going to start meloniting all of the newer rigs once they are broken in and seasoned well.

Unless you have a very rough/bad barrel there's very little going to change in it between the third and 20th shot in large bores. Shooting small bores like the .220swift and .204 I find them to be more finicky but from 260 on up mine all seem to be very consistent from the third shot to the 23rd.

If hunting season is ongoing and it's my carry rifle, even then all I'll do is run two cycles of the foaming bore cleaner through it and run the squegee patch through after each of them then two drops of oil and squeegee again.

Works for me.

 

[Greyfox]

I will always put around a dozen shots through my barrels to season them and then, unless subjected to heavy moisture(rain or snow), will try to shoot it through the hunting season wothout cleaning it. Between zero checks, hunting shots, and perhaps busting rocks, coyotes or PD's at long range during dead time, that ends up being 50-100 rounds. At 100 rounds my rifles hold their accuracy and group size.

I think the difficulty with a 100 yard zero is a visual or psychological effect with me. I have had the same kind of issues described and was seveal years ago able to tie my 100 zero to my long range accuracy when I started zeroing on a clean white sheet of paper with only an 1/8" circle on it. Also shoot from the same position that I plan on using when hunting.

 

[SansSouci]

jboscobuys,

I've shot from benches I have no clue how many times and my rifle's first shot will be dead on. If I took it out of my safe right now, wiped oil off it, patched the bore to get all oil out of it, went to a range, held steady, it will shoot dead on & 3" high at a hundred yards. The second shot will be touching the first.

I killed an HUGE bull at 130 yards away with it, clean and cold bore. I knew I hit him right where I was aiming, right through the heart. One shot, one very dead elk.

Now it could be with your guns, a fouled bore will make it more accurate. But mine has always been accurate no matter circumstances.

BTW, I took this off of the 'net: "...gunsmith Melvin Forbes told Petzel he saw something like 3,000 rifles come in for rebarreling, but only found 3 that were actually shot out. The other 2,997 were due to neglect in not cleaning or improper cleaning."

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I think the difficulty with a 100 yard zero is a visual or psychological effect with me. I have had the same kind of issues described and was seveal years ago able to tie my 100 zero to my long range accuracy when I started zeroing on a clean white sheet of paper with only an 1/8" circle on it. Also shoot from the same position that I plan on using when hunting.

I definitely think there is a psychological part to it. Especially since i despise it.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

SansSouci

Rifles can and will shoot exceptionally well on a clean bore however the bore is not gonna stay clean very long.

Many benchrest shooters clean every 5-10 rounds.
In other disciplines where its common to shoot 10,20 or even 100 shots in a day, shooting on a fouled bore is probably your best bet.

Since most of us will shoot 10-30 shots just zeroing and verifying dope, youll find most of us shoot on a fouled bore.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I've got a few rifles that don't even group well until they are fouled, others that have less than 1/2 moa poi change or shoot the first three into a good group off the bat.

My marlin 270 won't shoot worth a hoot until you've got a couple of groups down her, then she settles into moa (or just under) for another box or two. If you keep shooting her she will actually keep shooting tighter groups until she gets to about 2/3 moa.. My browning 300win put the first three into 1.25" at 201 yards last weekend off of a fresh bore using hand loaded rem 165 grain core loct bullets. Not my first bullet choice, but they are from a time when $$ were more important to me than the perfect bullet and they were cheap at the time.

It all depends on the bore but usually you will have a bit of change between a fresh and fouled bore.

One other thing that matters is the temperature of the bore, as hotter barrels will most often produce more pressure than a colder barrel. I've seen it on my old 7stw using pressure trace... A load can climb better than 5,000 psi as your barrel heats; that often will affect accuracy also, especially if you are using a load with a pronounced accuracy node.

(I avoid like the plague any load that seems to have any real fall off in accuracy because of temperature or charge weight but that is for another discussion)

 

[WildRose]

jboscobuys,

I've shot from benches I have no clue how many times and my rifle's first shot will be dead on. If I took it out of my safe right now, wiped oil off it, patched the bore to get all oil out of it, went to a range, held steady, it will shoot dead on & 3" high at a hundred yards. The second shot will be touching the first.

I killed an HUGE bull at 130 yards away with it, clean and cold bore. I knew I hit him right where I was aiming, right through the heart. One shot, one very dead elk.

Now it could be with your guns, a fouled bore will make it more accurate. But mine has always been accurate no matter circumstances.

BTW, I took this off of the 'net: "...gunsmith Melvin Forbes told Petzel he saw something like 3,000 rifles come in for rebarreling, but only found 3 that were actually shot out. The other 2,997 were due to neglect in not cleaning or improper cleaning."

At 130yds a Large Bull Elk's Heart is about a 6MOA target.

 

[WildRose]

SansSouci

Rifles can and will shoot exceptionally well on a clean bore however the bore is not gonna stay clean very long.

Many benchrest shooters clean every 5-10 rounds.
In other disciplines where its common to shoot 10,20 or even 100 shots in a day, shooting on a fouled bore is probably your best bet.

Since most of us will shoot 10-30 shots just zeroing and verifying dope, youll find most of us shoot on a fouled bore.

My M70's seem to just get better the dirtier they get. I won't clean one during hunting season at all uless I do something stupid like drop it in a mud hole and in such a case I'll most likely just hose it out.

My Model700's seem to be a bit more finicky but they are in .220 Swift, 7mm STW and 300 Rum. I don't like running more than 30 rounds through any of those without a cursory cleaning generally consisting only of one or two rounds with the foaming bore cleaner and dragging the squeegee through between and after.

Then just a light oiling for protection ad squeegee out the excess.

I'm trying to force myself to take a different rifle with me at least 2-3 times a week so as not to get to playing favorites which of course just results in one of them getting shot out way faster than it should.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

My M70's seem to just get better the dirtier they get. I won't clean one during hunting season at all uless I do something stupid like drop it in a mud hole and in such a case I'll most likely just hose it out.

My Model700's seem to be a bit more finicky but they are in .220 Swift, 7mm STW and 300 Rum. I don't like running more than 30 rounds through any of those without a cursory cleaning generally consisting only of one or two rounds with the foaming bore cleaner and dragging the squeegee through between and after.

Then just a light oiling for protection ad squeegee out the excess.

I'm trying to force myself to take a different rifle with me at least 2-3 times a week so as not to get to playing favorites which of course just results in one of them getting shot out way faster than it should.

I definetly agree that different bores prefer different treatments. In my limited experience rough bores tend to be more variable and shoot better fouled.

Just like lefty said, once cleaned to the metal they also shot bad until some more copper was laid back down.

I dont have any hot rod cartridges but it makes perfect sense they would foul quicker, and have a shorter sweet spot.

 

[WildRose]

I definetly agree that different bores prefer different treatments. In my limited experience rough bores tend to be more variable and shoot better fouled.

Just like lefty said, once cleaned to the metal they also shot bad until some more copper was laid back down.

I dont have any hot rod cartridges but it makes perfect sense they would foul quicker, and have a shorter sweet spot.

I have 3 M70's in 300wm and I'm not sure I could ever get them dirty eough to not shoot well LOL. They are also extremely accurate so I dunnno!

My original 7mm STW never shot worth a **** till I got the first 100 rounds down the tube but has shot lights out ever since. I had a gunsmith buddy of mine look at it with a borescope thinking he'd tell me it was time to rebarrel and o top of telling me the throat was fine he chewed me out for all of the copper fouling in it. He then spent five miutes giving me a complex recipie for how to remove it all after which told him "No thanks" because it was shooting so well I didn't want to change a thing. He thought about it and agreed telling me it would probably look like a rusty old cast iron sewer pipe if I removed it all and then I'd have copper fouling issues again HA!

She's old and ugly but she still gets the job done pretty darned well.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I have 3 M70's in 300wm and I'm not sure I could ever get them dirty eough to not shoot well LOL. They are also extremely accurate so I dunnno!

My original 7mm STW never shot worth a **** till I got the first 100 rounds down the tube but has shot lights out ever since. I had a gunsmith buddy of mine look at it with a borescope thinking he'd tell me it was time to rebarrel and o top of telling me the throat was fine he chewed me out for all of the copper fouling in it. He then spent five miutes giving me a complex recipie for how to remove it all after which told him "No thanks" because it was shooting so well I didn't want to change a thing. He thought about it and agreed telling me it would probably look like a rusty old cast iron sewer pipe if I removed it all and then I'd have copper fouling issues again HA!

She's old and ugly but she still gets the job done pretty darned well.

Do you just not clean the bores of those rifles?

 

[dragman]

Another point to the discussion is the kinds of guns. All my comments that I am referring too are about my custom rigs. top end barrels that have been broken in properly. I always clean after every time I take them out too shoot except for hunting in that case I clean them completely then run 2 fouling shots down the pipe. I will continue to hunt with that rifle until the round count hits 25 shots or I am done hunting then they are cleaned and put away. I come from a target benchrest backround so I tend to tread all my stuff like it's in competition and every shot can win or loose it for me.

 

[SansSouci]

WildRose,

You are a shooter. I am a hunter. Who the hell cares what my MOA was at the time my 160 grain Partition shredded my bull's heart? Is that what motivates you, the shot as opposed to the hunt? Would you get excited putting a mega-mag bullet into an animal's gut at a 1000 yards? Would you call that a good kill?

My Sako 7MM Rem Mag will shoot very, very tiny groups. I had a game warden friend who was a hell of a hunter. He's now in Heaven. He had a few custom built rifles. He told me that not of them would shoot as accurately as my Sako. In fact, I'll go my stock Sako out-shooting your million dollar sniper rifle.

Here's what did it for me. I did not snipe my huge, and I mean HUGE bull. I hunted him: dead, dog-tired hunted him, on his turf. I didn't sit on a bench and wait for him to appear at a thousand yards. I went after him, on his turf, with him in control of the outcome. We chased him for a good 90 minutes up & down Rocky Mountain ridges at at 9000'. When he made the mistake of stopping at 130 away, probably trying to figure out what we were, I had to wait at least a minute and probably two before my breathing and heart rate slowed before I was able to put a 160 grain Partition right through his heart. Every single HUNTER I talked with said it was as excellent shot, especially considering circumstances and conditions. But you wouldn't know a thing about hunting big game. You're a sniper. I'm a hunter. And you want to come up with some ridiculous BS about 6-MOA?

You ought to stick to punching paper and stay the heck away from hunting fields.

I've said this before & I'll say it again, I do not care how other people kill their game. But you can test patience of ethical hunters. And hunting is all about ethics. It ain't about how far away a shooter can snipe anything. To leave ethics out of hunting is like leaving powder out of cartridges. It's meaningless.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

My custom barrels definitely behave better than my factory rifles. That and they foul dramatically less.